Ice wrote:

soup wrote:

Just heard it. YAY! NO WENTZ!!!!So happy about that. I’m guessing they have a 2nd round Dalton type in mind. Wunkle – who fits that mold?

I thought you said Wentz was going in the mid rounds….

No, I said he’s a mid round talent. He should drop.

Still, if we weren’t sold on Goff or Wentz this makes a ton of sense. We arguably got as much in trade to move down from 2 to 8 than the Titans got to move from 1 to 15. That is a shrewd trade. We now have the building blocks to build a franchise from. All we have to do is not screw it up by drafting idiots….

Ice wrote:

Still, if we weren’t sold on Goff or Wentz this makes a ton of sense. We arguably got as much in trade to move down from 2 to 8 than the Titans got to move from 1 to 15. That is a shrewd trade. We now have the building blocks to build a franchise from. All we have to do is not screw it up by drafting idiots….

Or they knew Rams wanted Goff so they dropped. Rams lying to other teams would hurt their future potential trades so the Eagles and all teams probably know the Rams pick.

That said, you are probably right. They didn’t want either and dropped and got a steal for it. Though with their reliance on analytics they know a guy coming from where Wentz is has little chance to succeed.

This offer is so awful, and so very Browns-like, I expect it to be announced as official sometime tomorrow.

Beer me.

I’ve said it 1,000 times and I’ll say it again. RG3 is our starter. That’s why he was signed.

I suggest you all keep repeating that as well (as many times as needed for it to actually sink in too), because it’s the truth, and the sooner you come to that realization the sooner you can begin to get over the bitter disappointment of the Browns not drafting a QB in the 1st round this year. Because they aren’t, and I know you all will be.

Beer me, get me a shot, then beer me again.

Ya know what, fuck that. I’m gonna drink til I puke, you all can pay my tab. When someone is just so, so incredibly accurate with their points, the entire tab needs to be picked up.

I’m sorry but as prospects Goff/Wentz aren’t close to holding the jocks of Luck/RG3. Those were the best top 2 prospects in the draft since Manning/Leaf. Goff/Wentz aren’t blowing anyone’s skirts up like RG3 did. Comparing their trade value is silly. If you want a real apples to apples comparison, look what we got for moving from 2 to 8 and compare it to what the Titans got for moving from 1 to 15. Our front office did a much better job negotiating than the Titans.

I think this is AN INCREDIBLY HORRIBLE DEAL for the Browns. When you have the opportunity to take a legitimate franchise caliber QB with the second overall pick, then you do it. Eventually this team will need to stop passing on quality and settling for quantity. Evidently, in their eyes, this isn’t the year that they do it. You either pick the top talent or you play against them. I for one would like to see them start picking the top talent because, for the past seventeen years, the Browns have been playing against the top talent. And the reason is simple . . . THEIR TALENT EVALUATORS HAVE SUCKED SEWER WATER!!!!!! Everyone from Dwight Clark, Butch Davis and Phil Savage to Eric Mangini and George Kokinis, Mike Holmgren and Tom Heckert, Joe Banner and Michael Lombardi . . . and then there’s the dynamic Duo of Mike Pettine and Ray Farmer. How’s that cup of coffee now, Ray?

Right now the quarterbacks on this roster include (A) an aging veteran that can neither win nor stay healthy in Josh McCown, (B) a reclamation project that wore out his welcome in Washington and has a long history of injuries in Robert Griffin III, (C) some kid that had a cup of coffee with the Rams and is currently under contract for two more seasons, but is nowhere near ready for prime time in Austin Davis and (D) an undrafted rookie free agent from 2014 who lacks the arm strength necessary to make all the throws at the NFL level, and has his own injury history to deal with as well in one Connor Shaw. That’s our list of QB’s and we’re supposed to think that all is well?! That list is supposed to make us all want to join hands around the campfire and sing Kumbayah?! ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?!!!!!!!!!!!!!Did Sashi Brown take an ill-timed bump to the head and wake up believing that he’s Jim Jones?! I have to wonder because it seems that he’s wanting everyone to drink the Kool-Aid.

My biggest question concerning the deal itself is, “Why didn’t they bide their time until about half-way through their allotted time when they were on the clock before pulling the trigger?” If Philadelphia indeed is desperate, then the price would’ve only gone up from the terms the Iggles agreed to give the Browns. On that point, I completely agree with Shooter. A rookie GM, Sashi Brown, got played and the whole NFL world knows it now. His ONLY hope – and this is where his predecessors have so often failed – is to actually hit on those picks, and hit ON THEM BIG TIME.

The only people not praising this move are:

Wentz fans who think he’s the second coming of Roethlisberger and those who have forgotten how the RG3 trade ended for Washington or are convinced the Browns will squander the boatload of picks they just received.

At the onset, this is a great trade. Sure, what they do with the picks matters, but people are making fun of the Eagles, not the Browns, for this trade:

You don’t have to possess a degree from an Ivy League institution to conclude that the Cleveland Browns scored a major coup on Wednesday in dealing away the second pick in next week’s draft.

USA Today

When I wrote about the Rams-Titans trade last week, I suggested that the deal to get Los Angeles into the top spot would make it harder for the Eagles to do something foolish. Well, six days later, the Eagles did something that would charitably qualify as aggressive and could very well go down as foolish: They sent five picks on Wednesday to the Cleveland Browns, with the Eagles giving up a whopping haul to move up six spots and grab their starting quarterback of the future.

ESPN

The first major move made by the Cleveland Browns’ new ‘Moneyball’ front office was a brilliant one

Business Insider

Prices don’t always go up.

DS, I love ya. You’re smart, pragmatic, logical, you always remove emotion from an argument, and you work it through its paces as well as anyone I know.

But I have to disagree. Yes, yes they do. Whether it makes any semblance of sense or not, they do. They always do. Always. It’s almost a law of relativity in the NFL.

And the Eagles were clearly, CLEARLY desperate.

That has got to be taken advantage of. It has to be.

It was a ball drop.

And I’m talkin a Byner in the AFC Championship game ball drop. That level of a fumble.

@Shooter it’s not often we disagree, and I can certainly understand why you would want us to get more (who doesn’t want to get more?). Answer this one question:

What did Washington gain from the RG3 trade?

Washington gained the ability to move in front of the #3 team (Cleveland) to select RG3 (sorry @Ice, no one was ever taking RG3 over Luck, despite what the articles said). The Rams had Bradford on the roster, and weren’t choosing to pass on RG3 so much as they were choosing to stay with Bradford.

Contrast that to the QB hungry Browns who have McCown and the heavily abused RG3 on the roster. We aren’t sticking with McCown or RG3, we are passing on Goff or Wentz (or both). I wouldn’t be surprised if Lynch is their guy at this point, and if that is the case, this trade was absolute genius. Not only does he have all the physical attributes of a Big Ben/Joe Flacco, if he was the Browns target from day one they just received a king’s ransom to take him @ 8 instead of 2. In this regard, the NFL draft is very much a game of chess. Now, I’m on the record as wanting Goff. However, if the F.O. disagrees with my assessment of Goff (or Wunkle’s opinion of Wentz) that doesn’t mean they are wrong. They have given themselves the ammo to add top quality talent at the top of this draft. As such, I’m willing to suspend judgement until I see who they draft and what the put on the field. If they draft first year pro-bowlers @ 8 and 32 and select Cook/Hackenberg in a later round, stashing them on the bench for a few years and developing them into a franchise QB, it’s going to be hard to argue against this move now. I think the hardest part is the fear that we’re the “same old Browns” and our history of passing on top notch talent will bite us again (Ngata/Jones/Roethlisberger/Rodgers). That is possible, but it is also possible that the best QB in this draft is currently considered the 5 or 6th best QB prospect. If the Browns can identify and develop that player (and believe me I understand that our history gives no hope for such optimism), where he was drafted will be irrelevant.

I am encouraged by what I have seen so far. This is a true rebuild. We are not just switching schemes. I never expected we would land Hue Jackson. We did. I never thought we’d get Ray Horton back. We did. I never would have imagined that the Browns could have gotten Paul DePodesta out of baseball and into football. Sure, maybe the Patriots could have swung something like that, but the Browns?

I’m not drinking the kool-aid just yet, but I have seen enough to believe that the suspension of judgement until more evidence is available is the most prudent course right now. I didn’t like that they let Mack, Dansby and Whitner go. I’m not sold on RG3 as an NFL QB (for the record, I was in favor of the Browns taking him at 3 in the draft before Washington took that bullet for us). Let’s see what they come away with in the draft. While unorthodox, these are highly educated individuals that have means and methods not available to anyone else. If nothing else, it could make the draft far more interesting than we ever expected.

Shooter it’s not often we disagree

True, hardly ever in fact.

What did Washington gain from the RG3 trade?

I already know where you’re going here on this one, and to be honest was a major point of contention in the studio today while we debated this.

The answer is nothing.

I’ll grant that. neither to be honest, did the Rams, if all things are equal.

But that’s besides the point. At the end of the day, that comes down to shitty drafting then, on both of their parts. And as it pertains to this team, we know that story all too well.

That’s the rub.

The rest of what you said, I agree with the gist of it. It comes down to who you take, when you take them.

I got into an argument with my uncle today because he argued we should draft defense first and made the point “we never take defense in the 1st round, and that’s where you build a team first”.

Really Uncle Chuck? Barkevious Mingo? Justin Gilbert? Danny Shelton?

It’s not when you pick, it’s who. Offense or defense, if all you pick are scrubs, you suck. That’s how the NFL works, end of story.

The Browns, pick scrubs.

Every year, on both sides of the ball. Year after year. Team building goes out the window if the players you pick are nobodies.

Let’s see what they come away with in the draft.

Not to be cynical, but really? I mean we have no choice and I get that, but sweet Christ, isn’t that always what we say for the new regime? Isn’t that always the line? How many times have we heard that, and then been burned?

While unorthodox, these are highly educated individuals that have means and methods not available to anyone else.

That sounds like a real nice way of saying they’re trying to re-invent the wheel. Why do we always have to have a front office that is “smarter” than everyone else? Why do these guys always “know something the rest of the league doesn’t”?

Every time I’ve heard that, we draft a Brandon fucking Weeden and watch it go tits up almost instantly. No, sorry, I don’t wanna hear that shit about how highly educated they are. I want some fucking football people that pick football players. That’s all. I’m not asking for much here. I’m sick of finding year after year new found fandagled ways to do shit. Quit petting the cat backwards every year and just pick players that don’t suck!

If nothing else, it could make the draft far more interesting than we ever expected.

Well buddy, the NFL draft in Cleveland is never uninteresting. We at least have that lol.

Shooter wrote:

I don’t think @Shooter remembers the hype that was RG3 before the draft.

Ooooooooooh yes I do. I not only remember it, but I also remember how we were trying to swing a deal almost similar to the Skins to move up and get him because there was soooooooo much hype surrounding him. I also remember how much I was praying and hoping that we didn’t win the battle and tug-of-war for him, and breathed a sigh of relief when the Skins prevailed.
Yes, yes I do. I very much do.

You were not the only one relieved by our inability to trade up. I was glad Washington out-stupided us.

Shooter wrote:

Plenty of people were saying he could go above Luck and be chosen first overall.

C’mon now. There were a few idiots who came out said that maybe he should be, but let’s be real here, i was Luck at #1 and it was a no doubter.

Idiots are people too. You don’t have to look further than elections to see that. I’m fairly certain that all of us would have preferred Luck to RG3 but some people that are paid to share their opinions would have taken RG3 before luck. That’s why they’re paid to share their opinions and not paid to run football teams.

Not to be cynical, but really? I mean we have no choice and I get that, but sweet Christ, isn’t that always what we say for the new regime? Isn’t that always the line? How many times have we heard that, and then been burned?

Isn’t that what should always be said of a new regime? What ties do they have to the regimes of the past that indicate they are complicit with the sins of the previous regimes? Are they not innocent until proven guilty? The previous regime is our baggage, not theirs. If you project the mistakes of the past regimes onto them, your opinion will quickly polarize and you’ll lose objectivity, not because of their performance, but because of your own fear and bias. If we expect every new regime to save the organization (a tough enough task in its own right) and right the wrongs of the previous regimes, we create an insurmountable challenge for them that further retards our development. This is why the change of culture is SO critical to the future of the Browns.

That sounds like a real nice way of saying they’re trying to re-invent the wheel. Why do we always have to have a front office that is “smarter” than everyone else? Why do these guys always “know something the rest of the league doesn’t”?

To some degree they are trying to reinvent the wheel. Not the NFL wheel, but the Cleveland wheel. Cleveland has been using squares and calling them circles since the rebirth. I would say there is likely no one on this forum that is a bigger fan of analytics than I. Remember when Haslam paid six figures for a study that told him to draft Bridgewater (who was also the QB I had been beating the drum for) then he took Manziel because “a homeless guy told me to”? That was par for the course, the Browns being Browns. This is different. This is methodical. This relies less on gut feelings (which aren’t necessarily wrong) and more on data (which isn’t necessarily right). But if the methodology isn’t flawed from the onset, you should be able to hit on some and identify the reasons you didn’t hit on others, adjust your strategy and improve your results. Without analytics, you might be successful, but you don’t know why (and believe me I get that MANY people would be happy with that). Statistically, it is much harder if you don’t keep good data. If we were to play the children’s game Memory, and I was allowed to keep records while you were forced to go off of your memory alone, I would easily win the majority of the games. In football there are certainly more variables than just picture and location, but the underlying principle is the same. That is the power of analytics.

Additionally, Haslam went out and visited successful sports organizations outside of football, looking for a common thread. He believes he’s found it, and has restructured the F.O. accordingly. This is significant because it indicates that Haslam may have finally learned to go outside of his own frame of reference and, effectively, get out of his own way. To whit, he doesn’t necessarily believe he knows something the rest of the league doesn’t, he believes he knows something our previous regimes didn’t. That he realizes the Browns will be made fun of until they start rebuilding and openly encourages skepticism is reassuring.

Every time I’ve heard that, we draft a Brandon fucking Weeden and watch it go tits up almost instantly. No, sorry, I don’t wanna hear that shit about how highly educated they are. I want some fucking football people that pick football players. That’s all. I’m not asking for much here. I’m sick of finding year after year new found fandagled ways to do shit. Quit petting the cat backwards every year and just pick players that don’t suck!

I know what “they” did, and I get why you are concerned that we will continue to be the “same old Browns”. But we don’t know what kind of people these are yet. They haven’t had a single draft or fielded a team for even one game, let alone a season. They might be football people (many “football people” are lauding the Browns for this trade), and if they are, know that we have some very intelligent football people for the first time in a long time.

The thing is, as with draft prospects, you don’t know what you have in prospects until you see them perform on Sunday. Farmer was a football guy. Horton and Turner were football guys. I have more confidence in this group than any before it because they finally realized the phases of management are like the phases of a game. Instead of Offense/Defense/Special Teams, Management groups have Acquisition/Development/Cap Management. I have every confidence that Hue Jackson will handle development. I have every confidence that Brown & Co. will handle Cap Management. The real question, in my mind, is acquisition.

What if Lynch is their guy. Ice certainly feels strong enough about him to make me believe others do as well (even if I don’t). If they get their guy at 8 instead of 2, they are freaking geniuses. Time will tell if their guy is “the guy”, but from an acquisition/strategy standpoint they maximized the value of their pick, getting ammo to move up in this draft and high picks (first/second round) in the future to ultimately draft the guy they may have been targeting from day 1. That is genius.

Then again, they may take a kicker at 8. And that’s why I am suspending judgement until after the draft. But here’s the kicker (pun intended), if our offenses remains the train wreck it has been for the last decade and that kicker wins us 8 games because he can nail 75 yard field goals, it would be one of the greatest picks of all time despite conventional wisdom.

Dawgstyle wrote:

What if they agree with your assessment of Lynch? What if they feel he, and not Goff/Lynch is the best QB in this draft? I would have argued vehemently against Lynch at 8 if we were drafting at 8 with our own pick, but we’re at 8 with a boatload of other picks from the Eagles. We’re playing with house money. Lynch at 8 with the knowledge that we have an additional first rounder in 2017 and an additional second rounder in 2018, is a hedged bet because of the rest of the picks accompanying the #8.

If they think that Lynch is the best QB in this draft then you don’t move down. Just because the press has itself foaming about Goff and Wentz doesn’t mean that actual scouts agree. If you think he’s the best QB you know you’re going to have to reach a bit to get him.

Who needs scouts when you have the Calculator Club?!!

@Shooter The calculator club runs Vegas. There’s a reason the house always wins. Having guys in the building that understand why isn’t a bad thing.

I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure we fired all of ours.

Oh no! How will we draft the next Kamerion Wimbley, Brady Quinn, Colt McCoy, Barkevious Mingo, Johnny Manziel, Justin Gilbert or Braylon Edwards without dyed in the wool football guys!?

Of course I’m just clowning (but you badmouth the calculator club again and you’re dead to me).

The calculator club runs Vegas.

Yeah, but if we were a casino we’d e set up somewhere on the outskirts of Reno. Run by the Dutch mafia.

Oh no! How will we draft the next Kamerion Wimbley, Brady Quinn, Colt McCoy, Barkevious Mingo, Johnny Manziel, Justin Gilbert or Braylon Edwards without dyed in the wool football guys!?

I see what you did there lol.

Of course I’m just clowning (but you badmouth the calculator club again and you’re dead to me).

Sorry, I’m just employing Occam’s razor here hahahahahaha.

I’d take him seriously Shooter, this guy’s got more rocketry knowledge than the whole of N. Korea.

Not to take anything away from DS, but from the results of North Korea’s last launch attempt, so does my 7 year old son lol. DS’s rocket launch was cool as shit though!

Speaking of lawn darts, how did any of us survive childhood with those things available?

I’m citing being an only child as my sole reason for survival. No idiot older brother to impale one of those things into my sternum.

He looked good last night, but he’s also played the Browns and the Bears. Not exactly the NFL elite. A lot of guys last night were wide open in a way you ever see in the NFL. I’m still gonna hold off on anointing him till he does it against better competition.

Also, if he keeps playing like he did last night, he’ll be dead by week 4. He took a bunch of brutal, unnecessary hits.

Please tell me we aren’t evaluating this trade based on two NFL games and not even knowing the players we get with the picks. Please?