If someone gives a game ball for anyone on this football team (current roster), they deserve to be punched.

This was some of the worst football I have ever witnessed. And I’ve witnessed some doozies. And it’s not getting any better.

See you next week.

Hue Jackson – 100% his fault

I think that the suck players suckily playing had a good amount to do with it. I’d say 50-50.

Seriously, I would punch you. I can’t, due to medical reasons (fucking rheumatoid arthritis), but I really want to.

But…I do concur. Johnson was actually playing his ass off while the rest of the team was doing their best to hand the game to Shitsburgh. Pryor was doing his thing as well.

Still…it’s almost as if these guys are playing half-assed. I mean, we’ve seen it before. And it almost always signifies issues between the coaching staff and the front office.

Still, this is an ugly product on the field. The only teams we might have a shot to beat this year are teams we don’t even play. So…we are pretty much guaranteed to have first pick in the draft…assuming we don’t trade it.

This is all going to get better eventually, right? One day, we are going to field a competitive football team and actually win games, right? Just stay the course, and the master plan for this team will be fully revealed and realized, and we move beyond competence into the realm of greatness…right?

I need a hug.

Ice wrote:

2016 is about cutting our losses from past regimes. This is what you get when you rip off the bandaid. Hopefully this disaster leaves us in better position for our superbowl run in 2019.

Not sure if you mean losses like players….but if you mean not even trying to keep Mack or Schwartz as losses…….Then I am speechless.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/terrelle-pryor-joe-thomas-call-out-browns-front-office-for-letting-qbs-get-destroyed/

Pryor and Thomas now get gameballs for calling out our bullshit front office.

Put real players on the field who made him want to win….I mean that is why he left in the first place.

I don’t disagree with you because fielding a competitive team probably would ave swung the tide for him to stay, but the reality is your point is neither here nor there. What took place was from an old regime. They sucked. As such, they were fired. For sucking. For doing things like causing All-Pro players to walk away. For drafting shitty players. For having shitty coaches. For evaluating people shittily.

What you suggest, fire them twice? You can’t fire them anymore.

All we can do is what this staff is trying to do. Wipe it all clean and start over from step 1. Enough of this “try to field something competitive and right the wrongs of past decision makers”. We’ve been doing that for 16 years, and it’s never ever worked. These guys are like fuck it, we’re destroying the entire thing and building from the ground up”.

Is it frustrating? Dude, of course it is. We’re going 0-16, aside from snarky, snide comments and the jokes to make myself laugh to stave off crying, this is fucking brutal. But I can’t say I don’t applaud the effort because I do. I’m optimistic and hopeful of the genuine attempt to shake this thing like an etcha sketch and start drawing a new picture, because the last one looked like a Picaso drawn by a guy being electrocuted.

Again, I can understand the frustration, but there was just nothing left that could be done. You mentioned things that were issues, and there 1,000 more. Those things and those people (owner notwithstanding) are gone. There is no other choice but to wait and see. So far these guys haven’t even had a year yet. Let’s see how we are 2-3 years down the road.

The Clippers who are in 1st place in the West?

MDP Sack Attack wrote:

The Clippers who are in 1st place in the West?

guess you probably haven’t…let’s say followed them until they draft that all star.

Like the Jaguars, that sold for 760 million?

Or the Dolphins, who sold for a billion.

Or, the Bills, sold for 1.3 billion.

Hell, even the Chicago Cubs only 4 years ago sold for 860 million.

As usual, you have no idea what you’re talking about and are just making shit up to fit your narrative, and you’re wrong. “Bought on the cheap”, lol, nice try.

soup wrote:

the dude wrote:

He will continue to cut cost and sign as cheap of players as he can and hope that 1 of these teams wins some games so that suckers can come back and buy his product.

What this quote tells me is you have absolutely positively no understanding whatsoever of the salary cap or actually, for the first time, of building through the draft.
I’ll make it easy. If you build through the draft but max cap in free agency – when it comes time to sign Coleman, Ogbah and Nassib– you can’t because your cap is gone on overpriced free agents. You believe teams should be built like the Jaguars who threw money all over the place in free agency. They are 2-8. Now their cap will be screwed. At least for their sake Bortles sick horribly so they won’t need to worry about resigning them.
This is the first time there’s a plan you can see. Now it’s a matter of the idiot owner letting it play out.
And as for cheap – here’s something else you don’t understand. Everytime he fires someone he still pays them. AKA if Chud had a 5 year deal, he’s still paying him, along with Pettine and Hue and Farmer and Banner….get it yet?
Haslam stupid? Yes, undebatable. He’s a moron to the thousandth degree. Cheap? Not even close.

yes soup, i have been rooting for this shitty team for the last 30 years and have no fucking clue what a salary cap is….c’mon brah. bring some new material or something.

haslem stupid? yep. hires guys like hue. you win….you convince me he is a moron. nice job

“So you’re saying you understand the salary cap? Then when building through the draft for the first time why are you bitching about being so far under it?”

Being under the salary cap so significant is not building through the draft when you release the garbage as it is. You, yourself, have listed the badness this team has had. This team from day 1 said it was going to build through the draft. They have never.

They also don’t sign any good free agents. Washed up pros who are hanging on their career.

This is why we have such significant room in the salary cap.

well you can change my quotes around as much as you want

Please, tell me what parts of this I changed around. Be detailed in your breakdown.

You said, and I quote WORD FOR WORD:

Haslem bought this team because no matter what, it is an NFL franchise. He bought it on the cheap.

That’s what you wrote. You wrote that. That is literally the quote that YOU wrote. I changed nothing. Your point was that Haslam is cheap. Soup and I are both proving to you, overwhelmingly, that he is not. Stupid, yes. Cheap, no.

Further

so again, you named teams that have never won the super bowl or a world series.

You, are the one that said this:

compared to other sports franchises, yes. (it was cheap)

So I listed the last 4 that were sold, for comparison. You were wrong.

What a team sold for, and what Forbes lists their “value” at, are two different things.

You are wrong.

AGAIN

.

I don’t even know why I’m arguing, he’s not really grasping anything he’s being told.

DawgPoundDude wrote:

Ya see, I don’t even blame you guys for arguing. A few wins would perk everyone right the fuck up.
2017 can’t come soon enough.

I am telling you, they are just prepping to move this team. Watch….people have stopped going to games. The tv ratings are way down. They want a team in Vegas and they will try to put one overseas somewhere. I am betting this franchise and the sleazebag Haslem will move at any given nod by the nfl. Moving franchises means big bucks at a low cost.

You clearly did not address my point. Instead, you misquote me like a 5 year old.

I have no idea what your point was. I was just refuting your assertion that Haslam bought the Browns cheap. He did not.

And I didn’t misquote you one bit. As I laid out clearly above, I quoted you word for word.

The Browns were not purchased cheaply. You are wrong.

I will stick with my original point that I believe he bought them for cheap.

Your belief is wrong. And as I have explained to you more than once now, a teams Forbes value is not the same as what a team sells for. And further, the Browns are valued, right now, today, at 1.2 Billion.

If the Browns were valued at 3 million and he paid 1, you might be on to something, but they aren’t, he didn’t, and you’re not. You’re just wrong.

Just address this point if anything – are you saying to me that the Cleveland Browns have doubled their value since Jimmy Haslem has owned them?

Actually, yes, they have.

Look here.

In 2011, they were valued at 977 Million.
2012, 987 Million
2013 1.05 Billion
2014 1.12 Billion
2015 1.5 Billion
2016 1.85 Billion

This proves 2 things.

#1, and the most important, that in 2012 when the Browns were purchased by Jimmy Haslam for 1 Billion, the Browns were worth 987 million. So like Soup has already explained, Haslam not only DIDN’T by them “on the cheap” as you proclaim or feel, but he actually OVERPAID for them.

And #2, yes, since Haslam has bought the Browns they have doubled in value, from 977 million to 1.85 Billion.

Anything else, or can we finally be fucking done here? This conversation has made me lose at least 3 I.Q. points.

soup wrote:

Furthermore, the 2016 valuation is MEANINGLESS when discussing a 2012 purchase price.
Look at the numbers under the graph, now look at 2011 for comparison. What do you notice about the “sport” number?

Soup, Economic All Star.

The numbers are pretty simple. He bought the team for X. Now the are worth XX.

Do me a favor, if you want to argue this any further, just show me a team like green bay or dallas or washington or the giants…. where there value when up 125% in 5 years….please, i welcome it

Just a recommendation, don’t use Soup as a credible source.

In almost 15 years of talking/debating/screaming about football with the man, I can assure you, unequivocally, that I have never, ever, used Soup as a source. For anything. Ever.

I’m done with this argument. It is beyond you, and there is nothing I can do to show you that you’re wrong.

Think whatever the fuck you’re going to think bro, but I’m gonna tell ya one final time before I bounce out of this thread once and for all, Haslam didn’t didn’t buy the Browns “on the cheap”. Also, you can’t read charts or graphs for shit, have no idea how to click on a link, look the opposite direction when someone shows you a picture, and know absolutely dick about economics, you just think you do.

You win bud, you’re the king of your domain.

Soup – Dallas Cowboys have changed 1 year by 25% because the built a new stadium. If you want to argue this point, let’s not cherry pick someone that cannot be debated because they built a 100k people stadium which added to the value of the team.

The Browns have not built a stadium.

You provided no insight to this discussion though. I understand you would be more supportive of the Browns because you are a fan – but if you stand as a non-biased person, I just made a point – one that Forbes said about the cowboys specifically. I have made multiple points where the people who are arguing the browns worth for some reason they think it is 1.2 bil even though I post a picture from Forbes website that says otherwise.
I understand this is not an argument I can win – but it is purely based on orange colored goggles.

This has nothing to do with being a Browns fan, it’s purely based on numbers, which, being an engineer, I happen to have quite a bit of experience with. I’ll break down the insight that I provided.

You asserted that Forbes lists the Browns value at $1.85 Billion in 2016, and Haslam bought the team at $987 million in 2011,so he bought them on the cheap. You also stated that you do not believe the Browns value increased. Y almost $1 billion in the years since Haslam bought them.

Soup showed you the stars for the Cowboys showing their value increased by more than $1 billion in that same time frame, which you stated was because they built a new stadium, so the Using the Cowboys is “Cherry picking”.

What I was pointing out is there are at least 7 other teams whose value also increased by over $1 billion in that same time frame.

In 2011, Forbes (the same source you used for your 2016 $1.85 billion value) estimated the Browns value at $977 million. At that value, the Browns were ranked the 20th most valued franchise in the NFL.

In 2016, Forbes listed the Browns value at $1.85 billion, and ranked them 27th in the league. That means 7 teams that were worth less than $977 million in 2011 are now worth more than $1.85 billion, and have therefore seen their value increase by almost $1 billion.

All of the stats come from Forbes, including your own. You can’t legitimately argue those facts without invalidating the facts you are using to make your own argument. That’s the insight I was providing.

You asserted that Forbes lists the Browns value at $1.85 Billion in 2016, and Haslam bought the team at $987 million in 2011,so he bought them on the cheap. You also stated that you do not believe the Browns value increased. Y almost $1 billion in the years since Haslam bought them.

No this is completely an incorrect position I am trying to show. I clearly have said that Haslem did buy them on the cheap. I have stated that in 5 years, the value should not have increased. The argument is this – Forbes had it wrong and not the correct value. They valued the team at 977 mil. The amount of time that has passed in reality has not increased their value by double.

The other thing everyone on this forum refuses to access are the real numbers – in 2011 they lost 4% of their value

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/30/nfl-valuations-11_Cleveland-Browns_307074.html

Again, Haslem bought them on the cheap end.

Soup showed you the stars for the Cowboys showing their value increased by more than $1 billion in that same time frame, which you stated was because they built a new stadium, so the Using the Cowboys is “Cherry picking”.
What I was pointing out is there are at least 7 other teams whose value also increased by over $1 billion in that same time frame.

He did cherry pick 1 team. Yes most of the teams have had their value increase by quite a bit. However, the cowyboys had an investment of a 1 billion dollar stadium. A significant increase in team valuation along with being the new york yankees when it comes to fan support.

In 2011, Forbes (the same source you used for your 2016 $1.85 billion value) estimated the Browns value at $977 million. At that value, the Browns were ranked the 20th most valued franchise in the NFL.
In 2016, Forbes listed the Browns value at $1.85 billion, and ranked them 27th in the league. That means 7 teams that were worth less than $977 million in 2011 are now worth more than $1.85 billion, and have therefore seen their value increase by almost $1 billion.
All of the stats come from Forbes, including your own. You can’t legitimately argue those facts without invalidating the facts you are using to make your own argument. That’s the insight I was providing.
[/quote]

I do not disagree with your statements at all. My argument has always been that Haslem bought the teams on the cheap. How many of these other teams were sold during the same time? Because no owners wanted to sell their team except randy lerner who didn’t give a shit about the clowns.

None of this takes into account any investments Haslam has made to the team. For example if he invested $1 billion in the Browns since he bought them (he didn’t) and the value only went up $.75 billion, then while the team is technically worth more he has actually lost money on them.

There’s no way for us to know whether he’s gained or lost money on the team without knowing how much he’s invested or divested since he purchased the Browns.