Instant upgrade on defense. #1 overall pick will be defense.

I’m actually excited about this move. Gives me a lot of hope for the future.

I’m encouraged too Shooter. It’s nice to have a “killer” leading the defense. DO you have any doubt that if Jerome Harrison KO’s our next Colt McCoy that Williams won’t extract a pound of flesh from Big Ben? I don’t.

Give Greg Williams the roster Horton had to work with

That is, exactly what is happening Soup. Sure, we’ll have the draft. We might grab a few guys in Free Agency. But most of our players came from the 4-3 in college and have played it in the majority of their lives. They’re going to be better in the 4-3 for the mere fact it doesn’t require special personnel. I’m not bashing the 3-4, it can be done, and when done well, it can be EXTREMELY effective. We haven’t had the right combination of Coach and Personnel to make that happen.

Rams were 23rd blowing 24.9 PPG We allowed 28.4. A 3 point difference. Oh joy – major upgrade [/sarcasm]

As for the Rams stats with Williams as the coordinator, you’ve chosen to willfully overlook some very positive stats for Williams. The Rams 5.2 yards per attempt (total yards/Scrimmage plays) was 5.2 (tied for 8th) compared to the Browns 5.9 (26th), The Rams caused 19 fumbles, 8 of which they kept, compare to the Browns 12 forced fumbles, 3 of which they kept. The Rams rushing defense ranked 16th, giving up 1,660 yards compared to Cleveland, who ranked 31st and gave up 2,283 yards. The Rams ranked 10th in passing offense allowing 3,732 yards while the Browns ranked 21st, giving up 3,996 yards. And while the Rams might have only had 5 more sacks than we did (still an improvement), Aaron Donald recorded 31 hurries, good enough for 4th in the NFL while the Browns leader, Emmanuel Ogbah, recorded 18. All this in spite of the fact that the Rams offense turned the ball over 5 more times than the Browns offense did, their turnover differential was still lower than the Browns. And while their defense only ranked 24th this year, it ranked 10th in 2015 and 16th in 2014 with Williams as the DC.

It’s telling that even the stats you cherry picked didn’t even show that Williams did worse, they only showed he was only a little better. That says a lot considering the Head Coach was fired mid season (we all know what that does to your locker room). When you look at the rest of the stats (and consider his performances with the Saints as well) Williams is head and shoulders above Horton. Additionally, the 4-3 is going to be easy to draft and recruit for than the 3-4.

You have to tone it down a peg man. This can’t be good for your heart.

Anything less than a top 10 scoring defense is a complete and utter failure. FYI

Explain to me, in rational terms, how finishing 11th in scoring defense (especially considering we don’t know who we’ll draft or sign in Free Agency) is a complete and utter failure when in 2016 we finished 30th.

Horton is a good coach, but he runs a very complicated scheme. Our defense is half rookies who came from simplistic schemes.

Williams has run hybrid 4-3/3-4 defenses in the past so I’m not worried about him trying to shoehorn us into something that doesn’t fit our players.

Soup: you realize that by predicting we win 4 games next year you’re saying our team will be 4x as good…. that’s unheard of improvement. I never knew you were such an optimist.

Despite Soup’s gloom and doom (though I understand and agree that Horton was given inadequate personnel and generally treated unfairly), it’s not all bad news.

From: http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/01/browns_dc_candidate_gregg_will.html

Here are some other things to know about Williams:

* A disciple of the legendary Buddy Ryan, he runs an attack-minded 4-3 scheme, which is a departure from current defensive coordinator Ray Horton’s 3-4 front.

* His 26 NFL seasons include 15 as a defensive coordinator. As either coordinator or head coach, he’s coached eight top-10 defenses.

* He’s also presided over five consensus top-five defenses: Tennessee (No. 1 in total defense in 2000), Buffalo (No. 3 in 2001 and No. 2 in 2003), Washington (No. 3 in 2005), and New Orleans (No. 4 in 2010).

* Williams was defensive coordinator of the Saints from 2009-2011. He helped them to two division titles (2009 and 2011), an NFC Conference Championship (2009), and Super Bowl XLIV, as well as an NFC Wild Card berth in 2010.

* He went 17-31 in his three seasons as Bills head coach.

Additionally, from the land of twitter we get this little nugget from former Buckeye James Laurinaitis: Cleveland if you’re getting Gregg Williams, you’re getting a great leader, amazing coach, and one of my favorite people!! Culture Changer!!

Recall also that Ogbah was a 4-3 DE who we failed to convert to OLB in Horton’s 3-4, and the 2017 front 4 looks imposing: Ogbah and Garrett at DE, Meder and Shelton at DT, with Carl Nassib as quality depth at end. Especially when it was said of Garrett:

“As a freshman, he got plenty of sacks, but he was also flurried against some of the average competition. Last season, I saw growth in his game, and in his strength, with no loss of quickness or speed off the edge. And, he gave the best OTs he played against fits — Cam Robinson from Alabama to name one. The name of the game of defensive football is ‘sic ’em’ and he does it very well.” — NFC South scout

The scoop: “He’s a 4-3 (scheme) guy. He can beat tackles over and over with speed and quickness. You don’t always see consistent speed-to-power transition with guys like that, because the speed is all he needs. That doesn’t mean the power isn’t there, it just means he’ll need to play through blockers more at the next level than he does now. When you’re facing one of the top 32 left tackles in the world, athleticism can get neutralized.”– NFC West scout

Finally, I’ll leave you with this little gem:

Agreed, saftey is an issue.

We couuuuuuuld, sign a safety in Free Agency. We couuuuuuuld draft a saftey. We couuuuuuuuld do both. Hey hey problem solved!

Not excited in the least.

Of course you’re not. Having a defense that can actually play, be competitive and help our team actually win football games for a change would completely take away your ability to bitch and moan. That would really suck now wouldn’t it?

I’m suggesting that one coach is better than the other.

Of course players make a difference. Hence the need to add more um, players. I’m not sure if you know this, but there’s a draft coming up. In that draft, the browns are allowed to pick new players to add to their team. It’s a neat little thing the League does every year. Also, we can sign other players from other teams. It’s called free agency. A player who played on one team, is allowed to sign a contract with a different team. The Browns are actually allowed to participate in this event as well. it’s another neat little thing the league puts on.

To steal from the Papa Johns Slogan: “Better coaches and players, better defense. Cleveland Browns”

We’ll be drafting players to replace the guys we’ll end up cutting because “they don’t fit” or “they couldn’t make the transition” or they just aren’t what Williams is looking for. That’s why we don’t have Jabaal Sheard anymore.

We’ve been doing it for years. From Kenaed Lang to Kam Wimbley to Ahtyba Rubin to Jabaal Sheard to whoever the. Ext guy will be. We change schemes and then some guys can’t transition so we have to replace them and we can’t replace them overnight so we suck so we change schemes and some guys can’t transition so we have to replace and and we can’t replace them overnight we suck and we change schemes….

Meanwhile we get rid of our 2 starting safeties, our 2 most recent 1st round picks at CB and OLB flame out, and we get rid of our best defensive player in Karlos Dansby, Orchard, Bryant, and Bryant miss basically the whole season (Bryant cut), and we expect Horton to perform a miracle with A 2nd and 3rd round rookie and Jamar Taylor that we got for a ham sandwich.

Demario Davis was a key defensive addition. Read that again. That’s f’in pathetic. If I told you before he season that Boddy-Calhoun and Ed Reynolds would be starting you’d have said “who the fuck are these guys?” You might as well ask Horton to paint a masterpiece with a box of crayons.

Fact is, Horton had nothing to work with, and because it’s a different system, Williams now has less. All we’re doing is creating more holes in a roster that already resembles a sieve.

Greg Williams creates and implements systems based on the strengths of his players. His defense is a 4-3 hybrid. That means that the few strengths we do have, will not be changing at all.

All of our main players we have on Defense i.e, Ogbah, Nassib, Shelton, Kirksey, Haden, Bryant and Collins will be staying. Not only will they be staying, but they will playing in a system that accentuates their abilities, and returns them more to the systems that they played at and excelled in in college.

What’s the problem with that? Please, explain it to me. Our safeties sucked. Get new safeties. We need another corner. So add another corner. Our front 7 actually looks promising now. No more Ogbah and Nassib playing out of position at linebacker, they go back to being ends. Same thing when we draft Garret (which we will now). Go get the QB. Crush him. Cream the RB with the ball. Kirksey and Collins should be able to both flourish at linebacker now. No more complicated coverages and schemes from the 3-4. Fill the gaps, blitz hard, kill the QB.

I’m really beginning to think that you guys don’t understand what it is that we’re changing to, and why it is a needed change. You want to bring up players that match a system, and the fact of the matter is our players didn’t match the system we were running. That, was a big problem. We didn’t have 3-4 personnel, we had 4-3 personnel trying to play a 3-4, and a complicated one at that. It failed miserably. Now, we have a system that plays to the players strengths.

Do you seriously not understand this?

So you are against continuity.

Not if we’re doing something wrong. (And were most definitely doing that. It was wrong). Why would you want to continue to do something wrong? What sense does that make? You want another 1-15 season with a 31st ranked defense? Do you want that again just for the sake of “continuity”? That’s what we would have had. That’s stupid.

All these complicated x’s and o’s and coverages and blah blah blah. Screw that. That’s not the strength of the players we have. Now, pin your ears back and get the QB. Fill your gap. Keep it simple.

This is a massive, massive upgrade and now plays to our strengths instead of exposing our weaknesses.

But wail and moan if it makes you feel better. Personally I like winning, and I can see clearly that this helps us to do that very thing, so I’m going to be happy.

I looked at Rams commenters on the ESPN article. They are all happy to see him go

Oh bullshit. I read the same article and have made numerous comments on it. The overwhelming majority of Rams fans have said the Browns have made a great hire and they’re pissed to see Williams go. The only people being negative about this are people who are similarly minded to you, and equally as ignorant on the subject.

I understand that Williams is average at best as a DC.

That’s because you don’t understand shit. Average? He’s coached 8 top 10 defenses, 5 top 5 defenses, and he won a Superbowl by beating Peyton Manning.

I honestly don’t think you know what the fuck “average” even means.

Remember when you guys thought Pettine was all that on D

No. I don’t. I never thought that.

This year, the Rams won 3 games where the offense didn’t even score a touchdown.

Let that sink in for a minute.

And a Mike Florio article? Mike fucking Florio? The die-hard Steeler fan, Browns bashing asshole who loves nothing more than to take a shot at Cleveland literally ANY TIME HE POSSIBLY CAN? If the Browns cloned Peyton Manning and had a 23-year-old version of him to play QB next year, Mike Florio would write an article blasting how unethical cloning was, and would rail on endlessly about how the clones of Dolly the Sheep were never the same as Dolly. That’s how much of a Bitter Billy Mike fuckin Florio is when it comes to anything Browns related. There isn’t one person alive who doesn’t know that. The man is so immensely biased against Cleveland that it’s absolutely indisputable. Who gives two flying fucks what Mike Florio has to say about anything when it comes to our team? He knows absolutely jackshit. And he’s an idiot.

You’re welcome to argue anything he wrote. He might be biased and he might be an idiot, but he’s right about this.

My fuckin’ ass he is.

We need less linebackers? What kind of idiot shit is that? No, we just don’t need as many. There’s 1 less, obviously, in a 4-3. Big friggin deal. That means nothing. Literally. It means nothing. Thanks Mike, good on ya for pointing out math. You’re swell. Fuckin moron.

Same with the linemen. Oh, we need a few more? The hell you say?!! What a genius this guy is! No shit. Again though, big deal. We get a few more linemen.

What Mike dipshit Florio FAILED to point out or mention though, is that guys like Ogbah, Nassib, and Shelton all played in a 4-3 in college, so they’re going to be going back to their natural positions. Thus, making them better. That’s 3 linemen right there. We’re getting Bryant back, and we’re gonna draft Garret. Now we have 5 already. Oh the horror!!!

Jamie Collins, the prized stud from New England was working in a, wait for it, 4-3 under Belicheck!!! So, he goes back to HIS natural position. Kirksey? Take a guess.

“If the Browns were going to dump Horton, why not replace him with a 3-4 defensive coordinator?”

Gee, I don’t know Mike, maybe because ALL OF OUR PLAYERS THAT ARE WORTH KEEPING ARE SUITED FOR A 4-3!!!! Maybe? Did ya think about that at all there Floridiot?

Bryant, Shelton, Nassib, Ogbah, Kirksey, Collins, and the newly acquired Garret are all, I repeat ALL, suited to play the 4-3. It’s their strength.

So please, tell me again what Florio is right about? Tell me. I’ll refute every point he made in that bullshit, dogpuke article. The man has no clue what he’s talking about, and he’s just wow, so wrong.

It’s hard to go from a 3-4 to a 4-3? Well sure it is. It’s very difficult. In any normal situation. But it’s not when every player that you have who is worth anything IS FROM and SUITED FOR a 4-3.

Why do you think our defense was so bad to fucking begin with? I’ll tell you why? Because you had a bunch of 4-3 personnel trying to play complicated 3-4 football.

We just got rid of the complicated part, and are installing the kick ass part. Personnel is already there, minus a few pieces. That’s what the draft and FA are for.

Shooter, arguing they’re suited for a 4-3 because they played it college holds no water. Is Terelle Pryor suited for QB because he played in college and it’s his “natural” position? No. Not in any way.

These guys were drafted for their potential to play in a 3-4. Just because they played a 4-3 in college doesn’t mean they can play it at he NFL level. That’s just fact. Some players will not be successful with the transition.

As for the numbers, I don’t know why that ruffles your feathers. We need an additional starting lineman and more depth, and we need fewer linebackers. It changes the way the groups are put together.

Furthermore, contracts all get hairier now because 4-3 DE’s don’t generally make the same amount as 3-4 OLB’s and it’s the same for every position in the front 7. And, some guys, like Jamie, might prefer to go elsewhere to play in a 3-4 because that’s what they signed up for in Cleveland.

There will be turnover from this. There just will. It’s inevitable.

Florio…I get that. He’s an idiot that always looks at football from a lawyer point of view. I can pick amour his articles without reading the author because their always ridiculous. This just happened to be one article I agreed with.

When it comes to “getting another lineman”, you seem to be brushing that aside, but it’s creating a hole on a team full of them. At some point, we have to address that we either money or draft capital, and we already have a ton of holes to address.

As for Jamie, he was a bad example, but the point I’m making is players don’t like signing up for one thing and getting another. When you change the position a guy plays, you change his earning potential, and it can create malcontent. That’s my point.

Lastly, your whole argument is that we wehave 4-3 personnel and we’re running a 3-4. If that were true, why the F was Horton hired?? Why we’re these guys drafted if their not suited for a 3-4?? It makes no sense at all. Either we’re so inept that we’ve been signing guys for the wrong system, or we were drafting for the system to come after the current system. How is any of that reassuring that we’re going to be better in the future??

When it comes to “getting another lineman”, you seem to be brushing that aside,

Currently, we have Ogbah, Nassib, Shelton, Bryant, and Meder, and we’re going to draft Garret. That’s 6 linemen. Bryant Shelton Ogbah Nassib and Garret are all starter quality. Meder is decent. Then we still have Xavier Cooper, Wright and Holmes. Whether or not these guys stick around remains to be seen, but that’s 9 linemen. already that’s 4 starters and 4 backups +1. Not really that big of a deal to add a few more during FA, or late in the draft. So, yeah, I am kind of brushing it aside because I don’t think it’s at all an area of concern.

When you change the position a guy plays, you change his earning potential, and it can create malcontent. That’s my point.

I agree. So, wouldn’t you think then that guys like Shelton, Nassib, Ogbah, and Collins would be happier since they get to go back to playing the position that they’re better at? Where they were successful at? Instead of playing out of position like they were? I sure would think so.

Lastly, your whole argument is that we wehave 4-3 personnel and we’re running a 3-4. If that were true, why the F was Horton hired?? Why we’re these guys drafted if their not suited for a 3-4?? It makes no sense at all. Either we’re so inept

You answered your own question. I bolded it for you.

Starting to understand why we were 1-15 now lol?

If you were driving around in a mustang, and your boss came up to you and said “here, have this Porsche instead”, are you gonna tell me that you’re going to be pissed about getting the Porche because you’d have to learn how to drive it? That’s basically what you sound like right now.

Depends on what kind of Porsche and what kind of Mustang honestly. Would I take a Cayman base model over a Shelby GT500? Probably not. I know the point you are trying to make (and I think it’s pretty well documented that I think Williams is an upgrade over Horton as well), but I think Soup’s argument is somewhat valid. Change your analogy so that it’s a blind test drive and all you had to go off of was vehicle performance. If you just took the cars around the dealership parking lot (i.e. giving them a single year with no personnel), you’re not going to get a good feel for what you’re actually driving. And I think that, more than anything, is Soup’s argument. We don’t know what we had in Horton this time around (who had a pair of top 10 defenses here in Cleveland once before). We blew it up before it even got started. I get the frustration there and I certainly think it’s justified.

As for who the “better” coordinator is, that (at least for now) is a matter of opinion. I like the hire. It’s easier to draft for the 4-3. Williams is fucking crazy in a “If you kill the head, the body will die” sort of way that should instill a sense of fear in the opposing team’s QB that hasn’t existed since the return. Harrison knocking out McCoy, Brown kicking our punter, Lewis sitting William Greene on his ass in the backfield, Terrelle Suggs destroying the QB du Jour. Gregg Williams is not going to let those slights go unchallenged.

One last thing, because it’s barely been addressed, while the Rams didn’t have a ton of sacks this year, they still had a ton of hurries. Aaron Donald had 31 hurries (4th in the NFL) while Ogbah recorded 18. As a team, LA recorded 101 hurries compared to Cleveland’s 84.

soup wrote:

Williams defense is extremely complex. It’s based off LB audibles and DB adjustments.

End around, double reverse A-gap hike fumble.

I can use football words too.

You know EVERY NFL defense relies on LB audibles and DB adjustments right? Unless you’re talking about a bunch of blind people playing defense and no one can see how the offense lined up. Then they don’t audible or make adjustments.

Trips right bullrush Bear Bryant Omaha crackback, motherfucker.

soup wrote:

“Williams’ scheme is complex. Multiple fronts, coverages, pressures, personnel packages, etc.

Gosh, it almost sounds as if he runs a hybrid defense. Which I said about 20 posts ago.

But please tell me more about his LB audibles and DB adjustments. I’m really interesting in you going into more detail about them. Punt snapcount joker blitz buttfumble.

So what you’re saying then Soup is that instead of installing a base defense and calling the formations in the beginning, Williams is going to unload the full defense and expect everyone to understand it completely right off the bat.

That’s what you’re saying?

My favorite Gregg Williams quote thus far:

“They’re going to be shocked with our contact. They’re going to be shocked with our speed. They’re going to be shocked with our strength. Respect comes from fear. This is how you get respect in this league…It’s a great game. It’s a production business.”

When I say this man is a killer, this is what I mean (and I mean it as a compliment). He gets it. I’ve listened to the audio that got him banned, and I honestly have no issues with it. “Kill the head and the body will die”. Offensive in the age of player safety? Perhaps. Factual? Absolutely. I don’t believe he meant “go give them concussions”. I think he meant “live in their heads”. Make them think about you and not what they’re supposed to be doing.

Ray Horton is a decent coach, a good man and a nice guy. I don’t think Gregg Williams is a nice guy. I think he’s competent. I think he’s hungry. I think he’s a realist. Look at his defensive line coach in St. Louis, Mike Waufel:

Tell me this isn’t exactly the kind of thinking we need in Cleveland.

soup wrote:

Ice implied our D sucked because Horton ran too complex a scheme.

Um, no I didn’t. I’ve always said our defense (and our offense) sucked this year because our players sucked. While I don’t think Horton’s scheme was a good fit, I never said that was the reason we sucked.

soup wrote:

That implies Williams D is less complex.

You’re now two implications deep, building implications on top of implications, none of which I implied at all. You can go ahead and remove the tinfoil hat when reading my posts. I usually just say exactly what I mean. Field goal hash marks slot receiver lateral.