Well, I’m sure this isn’t the first train she’s led.

It’s the same shit every year. She always has “people”…though I suspect that’s what she calls the voices in her head.

Still, I wouldn’t be opposed to Trubisky myself, provided he rides a horse named Bench all year. Big boy, deadly accurate, and more raw than Mary Kay after her first train.

Really, in terms of QB, it’s gonna be on Hue to decide who he wants and where he wants to take them, even if that means it’s decided that NONE of the QBs floating around get taken. Because, when you really look closely, at best a second-round grade would be given to any of these guys in a “normal” draft.

If we went BPA throughout this draft (and, minus the first pick, traded down to get more picks), I wouldn’t be the least bit opposed. Just…get it right.

Ice wrote:

Every article she writes, she mentions that ‘more and more after discussions with actual football people I think the Browns best option is to draft Trubiski with the first overall pick.’
She never says who the actual football people are.
Is anyone getting on board Mary Kay’s Trubiski Train?

He’s been my top rated Qb in this class for a while.

Okay couple things.

#1, I agree with Ice, that quote about Cabot was pure savage.

#2 I absolutely think that we need to draft a QB. But not, and I repeat NOT, at 1. At 12, fire away. Grab your guy and be happy. But not at 1. We’re taking Garret at 1 and passing on him is insanity.

#3 Drafting a QB doesn’t do anything to solve our QB issue for the near future, because whoever we take in Trubisky/Watson/Mahomes will have to sit on the bench and learn how to play in the NFL for at least a year, and if we want maximum return on the value, two. If we trot out whoever we draft this September we’re looking at another 1-15 season and will almost assuredly destroy his career or any chance he has at one. That still leaves us with the “who is going to play QB for us for the next two years?” question. Are we going with Kessler? Are we going to overpay Tyrod Taylor to come here and do it? Cutler? Romo? Mike Glennon? Are we going to retain RG3? Are any of those realistic options?

It’s a valid problem.

Here’s my main problem with waiting until the #12 spot for a QB:

San Fransisco
Chicago
New York Jets
Buffalo
(Possibly) New Orleans

Those teams all could easily draft a QB before #12, and SF, Chicago, and NY have just as big a need as Cleveland. So, you’re basically hoping that they pick wrong a leave a franchise QB on the board for is at 12.

It’s too important and our need is too great to hope all those other teams make a mistake.

Meh. Kind of, I guess.

I think it speaks more to how low I feel about the QB’s coming out in this draft. If Kizer, Watson, Trubisky and Mahomes are all off the board by 12, well, so be it. It’s a huge risk on the part of those franchises to take any of those guys honestly, and I think they know that. If they take one of them, they’re passing on some top-flight talent available to do so. We’ve got 100 other holes to fill on this team anyway, so you go BPA and be happy with who you take there. That said, the reality is that 1 or more of them are still going to be there.

And again, like I said, it still wouldn’t solve our QB problem short term. None of those guys are capable of starting in the NFL next September, so, who’s our QB gonna be? Plus, you’re passing up on a phenomenal, franchise-changing, tone-setting, generational talent on defense to pick of them. Sorry, the juice isn’t worth the squeeze there.

Now, if you want to trade the #12 for Garappolo…….. Then you solve all 3 problems in one move: Garrett at 1, Franchise QB at 12, and he can start in September.

Removed

I have no idea how or why I posted that 4 times lol.

First, I completely agree bare minimum ONE of those 4 will be there.

I’d be willing to bet 2 of them will be. Of the QB needy teams, a few of them are going to address their QB issue through FA by signing/resigning Romo, Cutler, Kapernick, or Mike Glennon. Toss into the fray that the Dolphins have a serious question to answer before March 1st about Tannehill that could put him on the market, and the possibility of any of these teams making a trade with New England for Jimmy G, that will remove a couple of them for the need to draft one. Add that onto the fact some teams might not be so gung-ho about taking such a risk with one of these guys while passing on a different impact player available……..I’m saying that at least 2 of them will be there.

If you grade all 4 of the QBs you mentioned equally (and I think they’re pretty close in your book)

Sort of. I put the 3 of Watson/Trubisky/Mahomes in one, and Kizer in another.

and I really don’t like Kizer at all, especially in the first round.

Me neither. I don’t even like him in the 3rd. The other 3 are way, way beyond him.

Am I comfortable picking from a subset? No, because I’m picking from guys other teams passed up on, and I’d prefer to get MY guy.

That’s a sound thought process, and I can’t fault the line of thinking. I’ve stated countless times on this board and all the iterations that came before it that if you like a guy, you draft that guy. Period. “Where” you take him be damned. If you’re sold, then buy. It’s that simple.

But DEs can turn out to be busts just as much as QBs.

True. But it depends on the level that you’re comparing him at. If you wanted to equate him to a QB, you’re argument is that he could be an RG3 or Jamarcus Russel. My point, is that I would rate him at Andrew Luck or Matt Stafford. Russel and Griffin were drafted at 1 with a lot of hype, but also a lot of questions. Stafford and Luck were pretty much “yeah this is a no-brainer”. It’s not often that guys who are “no-brianers” turn into busts. Rare in fact.

Garret is a no-brainer. He’s the Peyton Manning of this draft.

Jadaveon Clowney came with the same billing, and in year 3 (THREE!!!) he set a career high with just 6.5 sacks. Last year he had 4 playing across from JJ Watt. I’m not calling him a bust, but those aren’t huge impact, HOF numbers.

Jadaveon Clowney was so overrated in that draft it was nauseating. He shot up draft boards for one, and I stress one, hit in college. One. That Michigan sack. Other than that he was average, and had a lot of questions. About his knees, and his level of effort etc.

Garrett doesn’t possess any of those question, and for the few out there that bring similar ones up, not anywhere near to the level Clowney. Not by a mile. There were a looooooooooot of people who felt Clowney going that high was a super, uber reach. Aside from a few dissenters, it’s nearly unanimous that Garret is the class, of this class.

Do I have to bring up former Browns like Mingo? Gerrard Warren? Courtney Brown? Point is, Garrett is not bulletproof.

Courtney Brown, Gerard Warren, and Barkevious Mingo all sucked, Garret doesn’t. And all those guys were rated by morons just as highly or higher than the idiots that rated and drafted Clowney that high. None of those people mentioned have jobs anymore, wanna guess why?

There’s no way in hell that the Browns are taking a QB at 1. Not a chance.

It’s a huge risk on the part of those franchises to take any of those guys honestly, and I think they know that.

Says the guy who would trade for Garoppolo, who was drafted at the end of the second round in 2014 from a spread offense and has literally seen two starts before getting injured. I mean, I get that you favor Garoppolo (I don’t even think your nuts for doing so), but can we be real for a minute? Every QB, whether draft prospect or trade candidate, is risky. There is no Peyton Manning in this draft. There is no Drew Brees to New Orleans available by trade or Free Agency either. The closest thing is Romo, and his injury history is extensive.

That said, if we could get Jimmy G. for our first second rounder and draft “the best available QB at #12”, be that Watson, Trubisky or Mahomes, I’d feel thousands of times better about our QB situation heading into 2017 than I would with only ANY one of those guys (including Mahomes). I think it’s apparent that RG3 can’t be the answer. Kessler is a serviceable back up and potential Bridge. Garoppolo could be a franchise QB or the next in a long list of failures that have backed up Brady (there really isn’t enough game film to know one way or the other). Watson/Trubisky/Mahomes as the “heir apparent”, if Jimmy G. flames out or Kessler simply can’t go makes the most sense to me and sets us up for a potential Brees/Rivers, Favre/Rodgers scenario in 3 years.

My issue is that it seems like New England wants a first rounder for Jimmy G. and there’s simply nothing other than opinion to base it on. He could be a HOFer. He could be complete garbage. Guessing which today, even correctly, is still guessing. I realize that same logic applies to Watson/Trubisky/Mahomes, and that is why I would prefer to see us address the problem with numbers instead of hope and blind luck (of which we’ve traditionally had none).

It’s not that I think Garappolo is some 2nd coming or anything, it’s just math.

See, the key to being successful at math is understanding the assumptions and quantifying the correct variables while recognizing that correlation does not imply causation.

The question you’ve not answered (or apparently even asked) is why Jimmy Garoppolo fell to the bottom of the second round. Let’s take a look at his scouting report.

WEAKNESSES: Is a tad undersized with small hands and short arms. Uses a three-quarters delivery that could lead to batted balls. Works heavily out of the shotgun in a spread offense, and footwork could require adjustment to working from under center. Does not always feel pressure in the pocket. Does not rip the deep out or drive the ball with high RPMs. Undershoots and often hangs the deep ball. Makes receivers work for the ball downfield, and deep accuracy could stand to improve. Makes a lot of simple, one-look reads and was not heavily challenged by consistent pressure or complex looks in the Ohio Valley Conference.

None of those weaknesses are going to be resolved from sitting on the bench behind Brady. Sitting on the bench didn’t make him grow. It won’t help him feel pressure in the pocket. It won’t increase his arm strength or cause him to spin the ball any better. From the two games I watched, none of those things have changed (even you were only able to find one or two throws that wowed you in two games). It’s not just that he’s only played two games, he played two games at the beginning of the season, in mild weather where his weaknesses wouldn’t be exposed.

In short, Jimmy G. was a late second round pick because Jimmy G. was a late second round talent. Switching from New England’s system to ours is going to set him back just like Osweiler going to the Texans set him back. Per his scouting report, in college he “makes a lot of simple, one-look reads and was not heavily challenged by consistent pressure or complex looks” and that is what the New England offense is known for. Contrast that with Hue Jackson’s system, which Mike Zimmer called “A pain in the rear-end because he’s got the physical running game, he tries to throw the ball vertically down the field” and I think it’s safe to say that Jimmy G. is not a good fit for Hue’s system. That’s why much of the focus has been on Trubisky and Mahomes. They have the physical attributes to play in Hue’s system.

That said, Hue did a bang up job with pop gun Andy Dalton, and he has shown the ability to adapt his system to his players strengths. That said, why would you settle for a guy you know you’ll have to modify your system for when there are a couple on the board who have the physical abilities necessary to flourish in it?

And while yes, he’s only thrown 59 passes in the NFL, that’s 59 more passes in the NFL than those other guys have thrown. He’s started a couple games and had some playing time. That’s more experience than any of the guys we could draft have.

That’s also far less experience than Kessler, who has the same build and a similar set of physical attributes and is entering his second year of Hue’s offense, has. I see no compelling reason to switch from Kessler to Garoppolo and even less to trade away a pick that could be used to pick a QB with all the physical attributes to succeed in Hue’s system for a QB who never has and never will.

To that end, while I think Mahomes is the better choice, I think Trubisky is also a better fit for Hue’s offense than Jimmy G. As DawgSoldier rightly pointed out, Sitting behind Brady has done nothing for any of the back ups that preceded Garoppolo, and there’s no reason to believe that has changed. Being Tom Brady’s back up is like being Bill Belichick’s assistant coach. Yes it means you’ve won and trained under a “winner”, but for whatever reason it has not prepared you for life on your own.

I still don’t think you’re nuts for wanting Jimmy G. I do think your argument about a QB having to sit for 2-3 years is though. Newton, Prescott, Mariotta and to a lesser degree Bortles have all had success coming into the NFL from the Spread. SUre, it’s nice to sit a guy for a few years to let him develop, but that luxury is reserved for teams that have legitimate starting QBs, not franchises that are still looking for the answer. As Prescott proved, if you get the “right guy” he’ll find ways to win despite the reasons not to.

So at the end of the day, if Sashi and Hue decide Trubisky is their guy, I can get behind him because I know he has the physical attributes (assuming the combine reveals no glaring weaknesses) to succeed. The whole point of having coaches is to develop the mental aspects of a player’s game. If you’re correct about what sitting behind Brady for 3 years means in terms of his readiness, it also means that Jimmy G. is near his peak. If we draft a QB in the first it will be because Hue and Sashi think he might be great. If we trade for Jimmy G., it will be because they think he’s probably good enough. And as a Browns fan who wants this team to win it all, good enough, well…simply isn’t good enough.

The question you’ve not answered (or apparently even asked) is why Jimmy Garoppolo fell to the bottom of the second round.

Why did Drew Brees fall to the bottom of the 2nd round? Why did Aaron Rodgers fall to the bottom of the 1st? Why did Andy Dalton fall to the 2nd? Why did Derek Carr fall to the 2nd? Why did Dak Prescott fall to the 3rd? Why did Russel Wilson fall to the 3rd? Why did Tom Brady fall to the 6th? Why was Kurt Warner undrafted?

Loooooota negative things said about all these guys. Seems to me it was all uh, bullshit.

What’s your point?

So was Derek Carr. And Jimmy has bigger hands than Carr does.

And Carr has a stronger arm than Jimmy does.

Why did Drew Brees fall to the bottom of the 2nd round? Why did Aaron Rodgers fall to the bottom of the 1st? Why did Andy Dalton fall to the 2nd? Why did Derek Carr fall to the 2nd? Why did Dak Prescott fall to the 3rd? Why did Russel Wilson fall to the 3rd? Why did Tom Brady fall to the 6th? Why was Kurt Warner undrafted?

Loooooota negative things said about all these guys. Seems to me it was all uh, bullshit.

What’s your point?

My point is this, when the knocks against a QB are mental (leadership, ability to read the defense, etc.) the QB MIGHT develop those attributes with coaching. When the knocks are physical, those things rarely change. Hand size, arm strength, natural throwing mechanics – as they say, a zebra can’t change its stripes. Sure, a thoroughbred may choose not to run, but it has the ability. No matter how hard the zebra works and studies, it will get shown up by the first thoroughbred that puts forth the minimum effort.

Mahomes, Trubisky – they’re both thoroughbreds. Sure, they may choose not to run. They may fail for 1,000 other reasons, but they have the physical ability. Jimmy G. is a quarter horse. He’s quick, looks the part and may even hang in the first quarter mile. He’s not going to last the full race. He’s Chad Pennington, Colt McCoy, Brian Hoyer, Alex Smith…take your pick. Good guy. Great attitude. He makes you want to believe in him. He makes you want to root for him. We want guys like that to succeed. They’re great morality tales. It just never happens. It’s like a minimum height requirement on a ride. You can be fat, skinny, the minimum height to 7′ tall, but if you don’t meet the minimum requirements, you can’t ride.

I’m tired of the noble losers. We need a thoroughbred. Jimmy G. is going to run out of the gate. Every time. He might even lead for a bit (that’s what makes QBs like that so appealing), but he can’t win for one simple fact: he’s not built for it.

When the knocks are physical, those things rarely change. Hand size, arm strength, natural throwing mechanics –

Knock on Aaron Rodgers. Too small. Russel Wilson. Too Small. Drew Brees. Too small. Derek Carr. Little hands.

Tom Brady looked like this:

All I’m sayin man is many many times, that shit don’t matter. None of the guys I mentioned are or ever were, thoroughbreds. There’s a good chance everyone I mentioned makes it to the hall of fame. Half of them are already locks.

I’ll take a “little” Drew Brees as a noble loser any day of the week. Sweet Jesus, look at that picture of Brady again. Look at it! That’s the fuckin GOAT dude!

And I still think you’re not looking at the risk vs. reward fully.

Garappolo starts in September. If he sucks, and is a bust, we’ll know it by November.

If Trubisky sucks, or is a bust, we won’t know that until November of 2019. Because after he sits for a year (which he absolutely will have to), even if he sucks an entire season in 2018, we’re all going to be in the “hey he’s just getting started”, “growing pains”, “gotta let him work it on the field” tryout portion of his career. Then where are we? In the same spot, except 2 years later, and looking at least 2 more years down the road. That’s 5 years.

I don’t want to wait 5 years. I want a QB now, and if he sucks I want to know that now as well.

I am wit DawgStyle on this. Jimmy G. has shown very little that he is worth trading for let alone asking him to the Franchise signal caller.

In fact I would like to know why he is a better option than Kesseler as i don’t see much difference between the 2.

you’re hitting me for wanting a proven QB who’s injury prone, and then suggesting instead we use a high 1st rounder for an unproven QB who had 2 NFL starts then got injured.

Yes.

That messaged was sponsored by Jameson, lol. I should add that the part about teams getting their QBs from the draft, I was talking specifically about teams with established QBs, and not considering guys like Tyrod Taylor or jay cutler, etc