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I posed this before. Is Farmer that bad? Or, is it the coaching staff that doesn’t put guys in a position to succeed?
New evidence is heavily showing that this coaching staff is 100% to blame as the are abysmal.
Ray Farmer:
1. Justin Gilbert – consensus best corner in the draft
2. Pierre Desir – consensus potential steal of the draft
3. Dann Shelton – consensus top DL prospect
4. Tramon Williams – former pro-bowl playerAll grabbed by Farmer. Here’s the kicker:
5. Joe Haden – multiple pro-bowl player
All have the same thing in common. Disappointing to downright horrific/shouldn’t be in the NFL type years.
Now for the damning evidence from an article my brother sent me last night:
There is both personal pride and frustration in the message being sent by Tramon Williams after the Cleveland Browns’ humiliating loss, but he is not speaking for Tramon Williams. Instead, he is speaking up for the young players who cannot afford to speak up for themselves currently. Williams is both voicing many of the concerns and frustrations of young players trying to earn their way into the league while also speaking to the best interests of the team and head coach Mike Pettine should listen to him.
Williams is 32 years old and on his last contract in the NFL. He is taken care of in terms of his career and could easily be in a position to just sit back and get his direct deposit on the 1st and 15th of each month, looking ahead to life after football.
The fact that he isn’t is a positive.
Tramon isn’t talking about Tramon. He’s talking about players like K’Waun Williams, Pierre Desir, Justin Gilbet, and the rest of the players in the defensive backs room. Young players that have their careers still in front of him, they hope – players that cannot afford to be overly critical in public, worried they will be labeled and shunned here as well as in the rest of the league.
Williams is talking to defensive coordinator Jim O’Neil and head coach Mike Pettine. Specifically, he’s going public pointing at the issues that O’Neil is causing in hopes that Pettine will act to correct them. This is not a new issue, but Williams is taking a new tactic with it in hopes of getting through to Pettine, because nothing has worked to this point.
Obviously, Williams wants to win, wants to succeed, be a part of something special, but he’s also at a point in his career where he can look out for the next generation too. He wants to be able to have left an impact on young players and leave a positive legacy when he retires.
Behind the scenes, Williams has been doing more than most Browns fans realize. He’s been operating as an advocate and a support system in addition to being the team’s top sideline corner this season. This just happens to be the public’s first look at what players admire and appreciate about Williams has since signing as a free agent from the Green Bay Packers.
The Browns play man coverage. That is who they are and what they do. And most corners love that. It is man on man and constantly competing, seeing who the better man is in a given matchup. That is one of the reasons Williams came here in the first place.
However, Williams is referencing two big complaints.
First, messing around with where guys are playing in man coverage.
For example, trying to have a slot corner move outside and become a sideline corner to facilitate a particular matchup. The Browns have specific techniques for their sideline corners in how they line up, punch and use the sideline while slot corners tend to be more inclined to outside in and if they press, press to the inside where their help is.
There are certainly corners that are capable of just going anywhere, but it is difficult to make that transition within the course of a single week and expect it to be carried out effectively. Mostly, it just puts players in a position where they feel like they are going to get hung out to dry.
Second, while corners like to compete and want to win in 1 on 1 matchups, they really hate having to do it consistently without any help over the top.
This week, this season under O’Neil, the Browns have played an incredible amount of Cover 0, meaning that everyone is playing straight man coverage without any safeties dropping into zone. This week in particular, that ended with the Browns playing Cover 0 with Johnson Bademosi lined up across from Antonio Brown with no help behind him.
Whatever feelings any critic has for Bademosi (I don’t think he’s a good corner myself), Brown is in the argument for the best receiver in the league and the Browns do not have any corner that inspires confidence in a pure 1 on 1 matchup with Brown. Even Joe Haden at his best has struggled with Brown consistently.
As one might expect, the ball found its way to Brown and he scored a touchdown easily. Bademosi looks awful because Brown makes the great play, but the fact is the coaching staff was putting Bademosi in a losing position. This is what Tramon Williams is addressing in his comments.
Williams was quick to point out that the players need to do their part and play better in his media availability, but simply put, he is tired of his guys being in positions to lose. And with O’Neil showing no ability to change or improve upon the situation, Williams is trying desperately to get Pettine to step in to make changes that would give these guys a fighting chance.
To some, Williams will sound disloyal or like he’s speaking out of turn – that he’s hurting Pettine by speaking out on this matter. The reality is Williams may be one of the biggest allies Pettine has. Had Pettine listened to players like Williams earlier, this would not have been necessary.
Williams also would not be speaking up for young players if he did not think they were capable of being productive players that could help this team. He thinks they can help and does not want to see this team and specifically O’Neil potentially kill their earning power with bad football.
The fact is Williams is right in what he’s addressing and with everything he is doing both on the field as well as in the locker room, Pettine would be wise to listen. He simply cannot afford to lose support from players like Tramon Williams that are doing as much as possible to help this team win, improve, and keep guys engaged. In the event he does, the rest of the team will not be far behind.
http://nflspinzone.com/2015/11/16/cleveland-browns-tramon-williams-talking-mike-pettine-listen/
Now turn to the offensive line. Until Mack went down we had one of the best in the NFL last year. The players stayed the same, what changed this year?
The offensive line coach and OC. That’s what changed. The line schemes went from excellent to awful and now we can’t run and have more trouble pass blocking than in the past.
The more you look at who Farmer selected and what the coaches have NOT done to put them in a position to succeed points the issue at this coaching staff.
Thoughts?
Freedom!!!
As far as the article you posted, it may be 100% correct but he didn’t post any of the quotes he’s referencing. I don’t recall Williams speaking badly about the coaches to the media but I do have a terrible memory. The article is full of conjecture and seems to have an anti-coach bias. I’m not saying the article is wrong, just saying that it doesn’t meet certain journalistic standards.
What is more important is what @Soup said at the bottom. It is objective and provable. On paper our O-line is one of the best in the league. On the field it is one of the worst. We lost our O-line coach to off-field issues early in the year and it feels like we didn’t replace him. We do play a ton of man coverage, relying on our corners to cover the receivers 1 on 1. The whole point of doing that is to free up more men to attack the quarterback. It’s a risk/reward move. So if we’re putting our CB’s on an island we should be seeing a lot of sacks, but clearly we’re not. We have 16 on the year, exactly half of the league leader. Again if we’re putting our CB’s on an island then we should be getting a lot more sacks.
I really like Pettine. I like his demeanor and his attitude. I hate his results and at some point he is responsible for those results. However I don’t exonerate Farmer at all. His drafts have been career-killing. His 1st round picks have been disastrous. If he’s not the whole problem, he’s at least a very big part of the problem.
Some of the responsibility has to also be on the players. Justin Gilbert signed a contract to perform for the Browns. He has not lived up to his side of the bargain.
I give Manziel credit so far this year. It actually does look like he has taken this serious. He fucked up pretty badly last year. He didn’t lose us that game sunday…..the rest of the shitty performers did. I still think he sucks, but at least he is still out there trying when many on this team have already quit.
Hue Jackson is a loser.
@thedude you can’t put it on Gilbert if he’s not being put in the best position to succeed. I believe (going straight from memory) that last year when Gilbert had the pick 6 he was in zone coverage. Something we don’t play at all now.
While I’m by no means exhonorating Farmer, if you look at the overall reviews of his picks (all but Manziel) you won’t find the WTF pick. They were consensus guys. That’s why you need to dig deeper into the coaching aspects. Our guys aren’t being put in position to succeed. There’s no reason ever in the history of a game that Bademosi should be 1 on 1 with Antonio Brown. No way ever.
The fact we never adjust when @ice showed our sack stats is absurd. We should adjust to zone schemes to help DBs since we can’t get pressure. Lack of adjustment is on the staff, not the players.
@Ice caught the main concept of my point when I brought up the o-line. Same guys, different coach, different scheme – terrible results.
I once read from an NFL star (read it years ago so he name escapes me) that 90% of players in the NFL would succeed if given the chance.
That chance includes coaching putting that player in the position of their strengths.
Freedom!!!
@soup one point where we disagree is on ‘consensus’ guys. Who formed the consensus? Two douchebags at ESPN who have never played or coached at any level? Soup and I both said we wouldn’t touch Manziel in the 1st round. In fact if memory serves me right, I said I wouldn’t think about him until about the 5th round, and Soup said he was undraftable. That means the PFT consensus is that they WAY overdrafted Manziel (and yes we said that before the draft). In hindsight, the rest of the world is coming around to agreeing with us.
@thedude you can’t put it on Gilbert if he’s not being put in the best position to succeed. I believe (going straight from memory) that last year when Gilbert had the pick 6 he was in zone coverage. Something we don’t play at all now.
While I’m by no means exhonorating Farmer, if you look at the overall reviews of his picks (all but Manziel) you won’t find the WTF pick. They were consensus guys. That’s why you need to dig deeper into the coaching aspects. Our guys aren’t being put in position to succeed. There’s no reason ever in the history of a game that Bademosi should be 1 on 1 with Antonio Brown. No way ever.I can agree with you said. And no I don’t put it all on Gilbert. But remember, we are talking professional athletes. He obviously has weaknesses – my question is how much time does he put in to studying the book, watching video, and spending the extra time one on one.
I don’t expect picks to always work out, but it sure does seem like right now not many of them are. I can also agree on your thought process of GM picking talent and lack of coaching being the problem.
Hue Jackson is a loser.
To try and blame one or the other is pretty dumb IMO. Do you blame Farmer or the coaching staff for Gilbert being so bad? Do you give credit to Farmer or the coaching staff for developing some undrafted free agents? If your answer isn’t the same then you are blindly watching.
To give Farmer credit for the UFAs you have to give him the blame for the wasted or worthless draft picks. Same for Pettine.
It is both. Pretty easy to figure out.
And for your information, Soup; USC’s Leonard Williams was not only the top rated D-Lineman in the draft, but arguably the best player regardless of position. You’re welcome.
Am I going mad, or did the word THINK escape your lips? You were not hired for your brains, you hippopotamic landmass!
And for your information, Soup; USC’s Leonard Williams was not only the top rated D-Lineman in the draft, but arguably the best player regardless of position. You’re welcome.
My apologies. Either way my point still remains as Shelton was a top half of the 1st round worthy player (so to speak).
Freedom!!!
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