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Educate me. Tell me about any QB you think might be drafted in the first 2 rounds, and where you think they should be picked based on their talent level. Top 3 pick, top 10, mid 1st, etc. Tell me what you like and dislike about them.
1. Carson Wentz, North Dakota State NFL COMPARISON Blake Bortles or Alex Smith
With a body type that is right out of central casting and experience in reading the entire field and working through progressions. Wentz immediately checks a couple of boxes that many college quarterbacks won’t be able to check. The ball explodes off of his hand and he can still make all the throws and he can make them with accuracy. His ability to escape pressure and pick up first downs with his feet as well as run the boot/roll out in both directions and throw on the run are boxes Wentz also checks. Wentz needs some development after just two years at starting at a FBS program, but his 5 years of being in a pro scheme QB room will transfer nicely to the next level. Wentz is a leader in the class room with a 4.0 GPA, a leader on the side line: he helped his back up guide his team to the championship from the sideline as a player/coach while he was injured. And he is a leader in his faith as he leads classes within his church. So along with the strong mental and physical building blocks of a future, franchise quarterback, he has strong moral core and support system already in place. The last time an FBS player went in the top 5 was Steve McNair of Alcorn State. IMO it’s time for that to happen again. Draft range Top 42. Jared Goff, California NFL COMPARISON Matt Ryan or Jake Locker
Goff has a narrow build and is leaner in the lower body than most teams like. He has good height, an NFL arm, good pocket mobility and hot/cold demeanor. His accuracy and decision making will suffer from occasional lapses vs pressman and or pressure just like all Air Raid QB’s. But he does posses good physical tools. He has lived all his life in the SF Bay Area where he comes from an a fluent family and a very ritzie part of town. He comes across as very entitled to me and not much of a hard worker as evidenced by his losing record at Cal. With his Nor Cal affluent entitled mindset and Air Raid scheme projection to the NFL, I hope the Browns pass on him. Draft range Top 73a. Paxton Lynch, Memphis NFL COMPARISON Marcus Mariota+Brock Osweiler
Lynch I think will test out as athletic as any TE at the combine. Lynch possesses the size and athleticism to make NFL teams take a second look. Unlike other size/speed quarterbacks like Vince Young and Colin Kaepernick, Lynch prefers to extend passing plays with his feet rather than bolting from the pocket. But he is still likely to make plenty of plays with his feet over the long haul. He shows some ability to read defenses and make smart decisions, but but it is in a VERY simplistic Air Raid offence. While he has the physical tools to make a team pull the trigger, he needs a team who is willing to allow him to sit and study his craft for a few years. Draft range: middle of the 1st to the top of the 2nd3b. Connor Cook, Michigan State NFL COMPARISON Ryan Fitzpatrick
As a four-year starter, Cook has the big game experience and the production from a pro-style attack that should warrant early consideration.The concern is that his short and intermediate accuracy has never shown the improvement and consistency that scouts expected to see along with some possible character red flags that will need to be explained in meetings. Cook flashes the potential of an NFL starter, but he has the makeup of game manager over playmaker.
Draft range: Middle of the 1st to the top of the 2ndhttp://cloudassetserver.com/STL/posts/185/sp_04_976x0.jpg
I am not sold on Goff like some of the others here. I think I will reserve some of my thoughts to another time in regards to this QB class as I am not really high on anyone.
Hue Jackson is a loser.
Just so they pick one and build around him and help him develop, too many times we forget most passers need time to develop and give up on them.
The opinions are so varied on these kids that each of the top three has a spot as the best QB in the draft – depending on which website you believe. I’ll address them in the order that DawgSoldier did to help with continuity . . .
1 – Carson Wentz: Prototypical height and frame to deal with the rigors of a 16 game NFL regular season. Is as athletic as Blake Bortles, but with 10″ hands and a rocket launcher for an arm. Is also accurate with those throws – so long as he can set his feet. Loses some accuracy when he hurries his delivery. Seems to be a good leader, but I don’t know if he’ll be as demanding of his team mates as he is of himself; since he was the best player on the five-straight FCS Championship team. Missed some time this season with a broken wrist, but came back to start the Championship game and was ON FIRE – so he’s not afraid of the big game. Only 23 games as a starter. On the NFL.com grading scale, he comes out ranked in the 20’s at 6.1 – which translates into “has a chance of becoming a good NFL starter.” Don’t know who sets those numbers, though, and why he’s not higher by their estimation. He’s equally comfortable under center or five yards behind him and can run a pro style offense. Does sometimes stare down his primary receiver, which can get coached out of him – especially if it’s Hue Jackson coaching him. Still not sure if he’s truly worthy of the 2nd overall pick or not; but I really, really like him – that much I do know. That said, I’d be okay with Sashi and company pulling the trigger IF AND ONLY IF THEY ALL THINK HE’S THE GUY.
2 – Jared Goff: Good height at 6′-4″, but his thin frame and spindly legs scare the crap out of me; especially with one knee donning a full length brace coming out of college. Good but not great arm strength – can throw with great anticipation. Seems to have a gunslinger approach to the game, but his lack of elite arm strength will likely be his undoing at the next level. Three inches less height and this kid would be compared to Colt McCoy. Interceptions don’t seem to rattle him much. Has thrown as many as five in one game (only 2 were really his fault – as the other 3 bounced off his receivers’ hands), but the team was still in the game – remarkably. Kind of cocky, but not too cocky; if you know what I mean. Can’t get over that spindly frame and imagining how soon it’ll be before he ends up on IR – multiple seasons in a row. When he’s drafted, the jersey needs to read, “Fragile – handle with care”. According to NFL.com, he’s their 8th best ranked player and carries a 6.7 rating; which translates into “good NFL starter with Pro Bowl potential”. Again, I don’t know who compiles the ratings; but I’d sure like to have a good long talk with him.
3 – Paxton Lynch: Great size in terms of height/weight/frame with the athleticism to evade the rush and make a big play. Is deceptively fast when he tucks the ball and runs with it – maybe his long legs that take a couple yards with a single stride. Capable of making all the throws at the next level. I love his mechanics and he has the best footwork of any early round pick (and maybe in the entire draft) – reminds me of former Cincinnati Bengal Ken Anderson (in a very good way) with the way he works his lower body as he scan the field from side to side with his eyes. Operated almost exclusively from the spread formation, so he needs to get reps under center. I like him far better than Goff. You can trade down a little within the top ten, pick up more picks and still be able to get this kid; at which point he’d be an even better value. Would I pull the trigger on him at #2 if Wentz is on the board? I don’t know, but this kid will be very successful on Sundays. BTW . . . NFL.com has him rated 15th overall at 6.4, which means they think he, “has a chance to be a good NFL starter.”
4 – Connor Cook: Why he’s even in the discussion is beyond me, but here goes. Thanks, DawgSoldier. I love you, man, but I just don’t see the substance behind his first round rating. A little slight of frame at 6′-4″ and 214. Lacks touch on short passes. Think about this . . . a four year starter at QB and his team mates DID NOT VOTE HIM AS TEAM CAPTAIN. Call me crazy if you like, but that speaks volumes and not in a good way. NFL.com rates him at 5.9. Translation: “could become early starter”. Anyways, they also compare him to Brian Hoyer. NEWS BULLETIN . . . You don’t draft Brian Hoyer in the first two rounds and for good reasons. I see him as the perfect fit to play the part of Bo Callahan in the movie “Draft Day”. I think this kid is a an imposter as a QB at the NFL level, and his team mates will not respect him. Some NFL team may draft him in the back end of round one or early to mid 2nd; but it would be a major mistake to do so – and even a greater one to expect him to compete for a starting job in less than year three. Can you afford to wait until a QB you drafted somewhere in the top 2 rounds is in his 3rd year before you see any return on your investment? I think not. Sorry, but I’ll let this one go by. I wouldn’t draft him until at least round three.
Here’s a thought . . . Instead of using the 2nd overall pick on a QB that the fans will want to rush onto the field before he’s ready, why not make a run at Brock Osweiler in free agency and then draft a big time pass rusher in Joey Bosa at #2? That way the Browns can take their time and develop a Cardale Jones, Joke Coker, Nate Suffeld or Kevin Hogan that you can draft sometime later. Osweiler won’t be 26 years old until late November and already has successful starting experience as an NFL QB. Josh McCown would then be relegated to the veteran backup role and help with the tutoring of young draft pick QB. As an added bonus, Cleveland finally would have the opportunity to stick it to John Elway.
Am I going mad, or did the word THINK escape your lips? You were not hired for your brains, you hippopotamic landmass!
Bill – because we need a QB. Grab Goff and be done with it. Bosa won’t put te team ahead.
As for Cardale Jones – if we draft this kid higher than round 23 we haven’t changed and will have a new regime in 2 years. Talk about the most overhyped bum on the planet. HE didn’t even start in college. Brock Osweiler? He’s terrible. He’s big – but awful. And with Manning’s assumed retirement – if Kubiak and Elway don’t keep him – stay way away from him. That means he’s even worse than I credit him for being.
Freedom!!!
It’s now official . . . Soup just gave Jared Goff the kiss of death. Your endorsement of Goff just verified all my misgivings about him.
Am I going mad, or did the word THINK escape your lips? You were not hired for your brains, you hippopotamic landmass!
It’s now official . . . Soup just gave Jared Goff the kiss of death. Your endorsement of Goff just verified all my misgivings about him.
2 years ago I wanted playoff QB Teddy Bridgewater.
When Big Ben was in the draft (ask Shooter) I got ripped on for calling him a future HOF QB and emphatically stated that if we were done with Couch we had to draft him because if he fell to the Steelers we were screwed.
Take Goff, be done with it.
If Osweiler was a future then why wood Elway let him go?
Aside from playing for OSU what on earth has Jones done to be a legitimate guy to build around?
Hogan I’d stand behind.
Freedom!!!
And about a decade ago you were saying we should stick with Charlie Frye.
Actually, I stated we needed a damn oline and insert the QB later. You twisted it into a love of Frye. Remember, I used to be of the mindset QB wasn’t as important as everyone else. We have the guys for the line. Get the damn QB. Enough with these second tier guys
Freedom!!!
And about a decade ago you were saying we should stick with Charlie Frye.
Actually, I stated we needed a damn oline and insert the QB later. You twisted it into a love of Frye. Remember, I used to be of the mindset QB wasn’t as important as everyone else. We have the guys for the line. Get the damn QB. Enough with these second tier guys
It’s time to let go Soup. I hate to be the one to say this to you but…Frye is no good.
So I picked THIS moment to make sure you folks knew I was still here and reading stuff. Just ain’t no good with the draft stuff. Nice to read though.
Soup seems to be the site’s revisionist history buff. Like DPD said, Soup . . . it’s time to let go, man.
Am I going mad, or did the word THINK escape your lips? You were not hired for your brains, you hippopotamic landmass!
When Big Ben was in the draft (ask Shooter) I got ripped on for calling him a future HOF QB and emphatically stated that if we were done with Couch we had to draft him because if he fell to the Steelers we were screwed.
That’s 100% true. We both did, because we both said the exact same thing. I’ve said it many times and I’ll say it again, when Pitt drafted Ben my only reaction was “fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck, this guy is going to dominate us for the next 15 years”.
I really, really hate being right sometimes.
As for QB talk, I don’t know. I just don’t. I know that I wanted Quinn. I was happy about McCoy. I didn’t want Weeden. I didn’t want RG3. I wanted Zach Mettenberger. I didn’t want Bridgewater (still don’t, I seriously still think he sucks and is highly overrated, it’s easy to look good when the leagues leading rusher is behind you). Didn’t want Johnny. I was indifferent about Bortles and Carr.
I honestly never heard of Carson Wentz until about a month ago. Goff is either the next coming, or a big pile of shit depending on who you ask or read opinions from, so there’s that. Throughout the college football season, I don’t recall ever seeing or hearing anyone say the phrase “and this is why Paxton Lynch will be playing on Sundays next year”. Not once, and I watch a lot of college football. Cardale Jones has a surface-to-air missile for an arm, but I didn’t see much of anything else which puts him in Jamarcus Russel territory for me. He’s a Buckeye, he’s from Cleveland and he got me a Championship, but other than that……no.
I don’t even now what direction we should if we DO draft a QB. Let him sit on the bench for a year and learn behind McCown? Or throw him in the fire and learn on the fly?
I just don’t know.
I know what I want. I mean, that’s pretty easy. It’s the same thing that everyone wants. Tall, strong, can take a hit without exploding, can stand in the pocket, read a defense, delivery the ball with accuracy, strong arm, good footwork.
You guys tell me. Whoever fits that description, that’s the guy I want then. Is that guy available? I have no fucking clue. All I know is that at this point, I have all the faith in the world that the Browns will undoubtedly pick the wrong guy. Like we always do. If we take Goff, Lynch and Wentz will be vying for Rookie of the Year. If we take Lynch, he’ll fall flat on his face. If we take Wentz, the entire league will be laughing at us while Goff takes over for an injured Romo in week 3 and leads the Cowboys to the Super Bowl lol.
I honestly have no idea.
Shooter wrote . . .
I know what I want. I mean, that’s pretty easy. It’s the same thing that everyone wants. Tall, strong, can take a hit without exploding, can stand in the pocket, read a defense, deliver the ball with accuracy, strong arm, good footwork.
* “Can take a hit without exploding”. Well, that leaves Goff out of the competition. Have you seen his spindly frame?
* “Tall, strong”. Wentz and Lynch.
* “Can stand in the pocket”. Wentz and Lynch.
* “Read a defense”. Not sure any of them can do that very well just yet.
* “deliver the ball with accuracy, strong arm, good footwork” Wentz and Lynch. Wentz has the stronger arm; Wentz has very good footwork, but Lynch has great footwork – both accurate passers. Wentz is also accustomed to taking snaps from under center; not so much with Lynch.
Both of these kids are very coachable and are students of the game. I’d take Wentz over Lynch or Goff at #2 if I had to take a QB there – for what it’s worth.
Am I going mad, or did the word THINK escape your lips? You were not hired for your brains, you hippopotamic landmass!
Wentz seems to fit the mold.
Until you look at the fact that he went to East Potomac Community College. Or wherever the hell he’s from lol. I mean, North Dakota State? What conference is that in? How does playing against Weber State, South Dakota, and Youngstown State translate to the NFL? Is it cool that he shredded Richmond in the playoffs lol?
I dunno.
Wentz seems to fit the mold.
Until you look at the fact that he went to East Potomac Community College. Or wherever the hell he’s from lol. I mean, North Dakota State? What conference is that in? How does playing against Weber State, South Dakota, and Youngstown State translate to the NFL? Is it cool that he shredded Richmond in the playoffs lol?
I dunno.Selective bias on Bills part. Wentz missed significant time last year with a broken wrist. Imagine if he gets hit by an actual NFL player. Wentz has roughly 1.5 years in starting experience due to that. That’s why he’s a scary prospect. 1.5 years starting against you and me.
Freedom!!!
Wentz’s injury was of the freak injury type Hoyer had against the bills a fews back. he just landed wrong on his wrist and almost finished the game with a broken wrist.
Wentz is the best of the lot.
Cook has his character issues but might go in the bottom of the 1st. I included him in case someone wanted to talk about drafting a QB at 32.
The other 2 goff and lynch come from the awful air raid that has produced 100% failures at the NFL in the last 20 years
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Selective bias my a$$, Soup. In spite of his wrist injury (which was a fluke kind of injury), I’ll take my chances with the QB that’s been brought up in a pro style offense, has the prototypical frame and laser rocket arm over the 6′-4″ spindly-framed version of Colt McCoy.
Am I going mad, or did the word THINK escape your lips? You were not hired for your brains, you hippopotamic landmass!
So…… For Wentz DS and Wunkle…possibly shooter leaning that way as well
For Goff…Soup
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Selective bias my a$$, Soup. In spite of his wrist injury (which was a fluke kind of injury), I’ll take my chances with the QB that’s been brought up in a pro style offense, has the prototypical frame and laser rocket arm over the 6′-4″ spindly-framed version of Colt McCoy.
My point was the fact you brought up the guy you don’t like as an injury concern due to his size and ignore the guy who actually had the brittle bones and lost significant time due to injury. That’s the definition of selective bias.
Wentz biggest concern is 1.5 years starting against wildly inferior competition. That’s very small experience in that pro style offense against grocery baggers. If he had 4 years starting he’d be easier to swallow as the guy.
Freedom!!!
Selective bias my a$$, Soup. In spite of his wrist injury (which was a fluke kind of injury), I’ll take my chances with the QB that’s been brought up in a pro style offense, has the prototypical frame and laser rocket arm over the 6′-4″ spindly-framed version of Colt McCoy.
My point was the fact you brought up the guy you don’t like as an injury concern due to his size and ignore the guy who actually had the brittle bones and lost significant time due to injury. That’s the definition of selective bias.
Wentz biggest concern is 1.5 years starting against wildly inferior competition. That’s very small experience in that pro style offense against grocery baggers. If he had 4 years starting he’d be easier to swallow as the guy.Based on what medical evidence? Or is that just a BS opinion?
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You want to talk injuries? Okay, let’s talk injuries. In a story dated 11-27-2014, Jared Goff underwent surgery to repair his separated right (throwing) shoulder in their 63-13 loss to Stanford in the season finale. He was fortunate that it was the season finale; otherwise, he would’ve needed to be redshirted. As it turned out, he was able to start the next season. Also, Have you seen the size of the knee brace he wears? I wasn’t able to find anything on a knee injury; but if that was a precautionary move, then why on just one leg? His combine physical will get all the information the teams need. As spindly as those legs are, he’s just one sack away from an ACL injury or a broken leg. Mind you, I don’t want to wish that on anyone, but we’ve already had far too many injury issues with QB’s on this roster. I get it that you want to look at the stat sheet, Soup, but the stats don’t tell the whole story.
More bits of information . . . over the past 3 season, Goff has fumbled the football 24 times – losing 11. What size are his hands? I’ll be interested in seeing that info from the combine measurements. He was also sacked 81 times over those three seasons. That averages to 27 per season – in spite of his ability to avoid the rush. Is that on him or his O-line? I’m guessing a fair measure of both.
Also . . . it was reported by Mike Mayock of the NFL Network during Senior Bowl week that Carson Wentz has 10 inch hands. Hand size is a critical factor in terms of ball security. Stanford’s Kevin Hogan also has 10 inch hands . . . just thought you might want to know.
Am I going mad, or did the word THINK escape your lips? You were not hired for your brains, you hippopotamic landmass!
http://www.phillyvoice.com/comparing-carson-wentz-jared-goff-paxton-lynch-mobility-edition/
This article/evaluation came up with this:
Rank Arm Strength Release Mobility
1 Carson Wentz Jared Goff Carson Wentz
2 Paxton Lynch Carson Wentz Paxton Lynch
3 Jared Goff Paxton Lynch Jared GoffIt has embedded videos to back up it’s points. So IMO it’s a good read.
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You want to talk injuries? Okay, let’s talk injuries. In a story dated 11-27-2014, Jared Goff underwent surgery to repair his separated right (throwing) shoulder in their 63-13 loss to Stanford in the season finale. He was fortunate that it was the season finale; otherwise, he would’ve needed to be redshirted. As it turned out, he was able to start the next season. Also, Have you seen the size of the knee brace he wears? I wasn’t able to find anything on a knee injury; but if that was a precautionary move, then why on just one leg? His combine physical will get all the information the teams need. As spindly as those legs are, he’s just one sack away from an ACL injury or a broken leg. Mind you, I don’t want to wish that on anyone, but we’ve already had far too many injury issues with QB’s on this roster. I get it that you want to look at the stat sheet, Soup, but the stats don’t tell the whole story.
More bits of information . . . over the past 3 season, Goff has fumbled the football 24 times – losing 11. What size are his hands? I’ll be interested in seeing that info from the combine measurements. He was also sacked 81 times over those three seasons. That averages to 27 per season – in spite of his ability to avoid the rush. Is that on him or his O-line? I’m guessing a fair measure of both.
Also . . . it was reported by Mike Mayock of the NFL Network during Senior Bowl week that Carson Wentz has 10 inch hands. Hand size is a critical factor in terms of ball security. Stanford’s Kevin Hogan also has 10 inch hands . . . just thought you might want to know.You are the one who stated Goff is an injury concern. I merely pointed out the fact that the one who missed significant time due to injury was Wentz. You conveniently left that out.
Again I’ll stare the biggest concern with Wentz. He started against grocery baggers for 1.5 years. That’s it. That’s his experience. That’s a major red flag.
If the y take Goff, I better be right. If they take Wentz, you better be right. Bottom line, they have to finally get it right.
Freedom!!!
And what level of talent did the rest of the AFC north QB’s go against when they were at school Soup?
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Bottom line, they have to finally get it right.
And on a scale of 1-10, what’s our collective confidence level that that will happen?
Mine is at a 2.
Which is being quite generous.
Here’s some food for thought on Wentz
NDSU was 13-2 on the year.
Wentz – 5-2 record SENIOR
62.5% completion 1651 yards 17 TDs and 4 ints
Easton Stick – TRUE FRESHMAN
8-0 record
61.2% completion 1144 yards 13 TDs and 4 ints
No drop off in production with a TRUE FRESHMAN starting in his place.
Wentz (I’ll say it again since pro-Wentz people are ignoring it) has 1.5 years starting experience against garbage. When he wa out with injury the team didn’t miss a beat an went undefeated.
The obsession with Wentz is this: 6’6″ 235 LBS with a big arm.
Freedom!!!
Jared Goff – played every game for 3 years. Last year – less attempts per game – numbers went UP. increased production every year.
I can’t find anything on Goff’s knee. I don’t know if this has a thing to do with it (From Sept 21, 2015)
Quarterback Jared Goff was noticeably gimpy in the fourth quarter of Cal’s win over Texas. Goff said after the game that his ankle got rolled up on, but it was minor and he will be ready to go against Washington. Everyone who remembers Nate Longshore is wincing, but we’ll have to take Goff’s word that he’s all healed up. He’s going to practice fully when the Bears resume full workouts on Tuesday.
While I get that it’s an ankle – if you favor something it can effect something else.
As for Goff’s frame – per Fox Sports Goff is 6’4″ and 215 LBs.
Matt Ryan 6’4″ 217 LBs
Tom Brady 6’4″ 225 LBs
Big Ben 6’5″ 241 LBs
Aaron Rodgers 6’2″ 225 LBSMatt Ryan has missed a total of 2 games. Tom Brady missed an entire year. Big Ben has missed 14 games. Rodgers has missed 9 games.
You are putting way too much stock in his size and being able to take hits.
Freedom!!!
Here’s some food for thought on Wentz
NDSU was 13-2 on the year.
<strong class=”d4pbbc-bold”>Wentz – 5-2 record SENIOR
62.5% completion 1651 yards 17 TDs and 4 ints
<strong class=”d4pbbc-bold”>Easton Stick – TRUE FRESHMAN
8-0 record
61.2% completion 1144 yards 13 TDs and 4 ints
No drop off in production with a TRUE FRESHMAN starting in his place.
Wentz (I’ll say it again since pro-Wentz people are ignoring it) has 1.5 years starting experience against garbage. When he wa out with injury the team didn’t miss a beat an went undefeated.
The obsession with Wentz is this: 6’6″ 235 LBS with a big arm.NOPE, but it is nice. IT’s that everything he did in the 5 years he was at ND St transfers to NFL. Where as nothing of the Air Raid O transfers to the next level because it is so high school simplistic and actually the most common offence used in high school because it can be installed in 3 days. So all of Goff’s experience isn’t an asset because it doesn’t transfer.
If you actually ever read this Soup do yourself a favor and look up the bustolicious list of QB’s that came out of the Air Raid. And you will see a 100% failure rate from EVERY QB to come out of the scheme in the last 2 decades or so.
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Measurements: 12 prospects under the microscope at the NFL Combine
Jared Goff, QB, California
While he possesses desired height for the position, Goff has a leaner-than-ideal build and although it appears he has the frame to add bulk, his measurements will give scouts a better idea of his growth potential. Goff also fumbled the ball 23 times in college so his official hand size will be interesting – teams will be hoping he hits the 9 1/8-inch threshold.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/nfl-draft-scout/25485141/measurements-12-prospects-under-the-microscope-at-the-nfl-combine23 fumbles and 30 Int’s in 3 years at Cal. That’s a HUGE red flag for me. Wonder if it is a small hand issue?
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While DawgSoldier has already addressed this issue, I’d like to expound on what he and I both look for in a potential franchise QB . . .
HEIGHT: ideally, your QB should be 6′-4″ or taller to aid with overall field vision.
WEIGHT: an indication of solid bone structure – about 235-245 depending on height.
FRAME: solid skeletal structure is a concern for taking the pounding of an NFL season and the ability to add muscle mass.
ARM STRENGTH: must be able to stretch the field with his arm and make all the throws with very good velocity and touch.
INTELLIGENCE: ability to make pre-snap reads, change plays pre-snap, go through progressions post-snap and make the correct read.
OFFENSIVE SYSTEM: experience in a pro style offense is very favorable in that the candidate has to be able to take the snap from under center at the next level.
MECHNAICS: proper mechanics is the key to delivering the football accurately and consistently. Footwork, shoulder positioning and arm/hand positioning are all factors for this.
LEADERSHIP: your QB is the field general, so he must have the ability to rally his troops and get the job done. the QB needs to have command in the huddle.
CHARACTER: After what we’ve seen in Cleveland over the past 2 seasons with Johnny Manziel, you’re greatly mistaken if you think that character doesn’t matter.
COACHABILITY: the QB must be able to take instruction from coaches and apply it in practice and during game time.
Carson Wentz checks the box beside every single category. THAT’S why I want him wearing brown and orange for the next dozen years or so. The other QB prospects fall short in checking all the boxes. Some may come close, but this is the kid for my money if I’m an NFL personnel guy.
Am I going mad, or did the word THINK escape your lips? You were not hired for your brains, you hippopotamic landmass!
While DawgSoldier has already addressed this issue,
Most of us here can’t read Dawgsoldiers posts because we have him on ignore.
While DawgSoldier has already addressed this issue, I’d like to expound on what he and I both look for in a potential franchise QB . . .
He’s on ignore so I don’t know his responses.
HEIGHT: ideally, your QB should be 6′-4″ or taller to aid with overall field vision.
Goff and Wentz meet this requirement.
WEIGHT: an indication of solid bone structure – about 235-245 depending on height.
This number is unrealistic and pulled out of thin air. Of the top 10 guys in passing yards in 2015 – only 2 are 235 LB+. Of the top 30 – only 7 hit that requirement. Throw Andrew Luck in there and the 32 “starters” overall – 8 hit that requirement. 25% of NFL starters are 235LBs +.
FRAME: solid skeletal structure is a concern for taking the pounding of an NFL season and the ability to add muscle mass.
Goff and Wentz both have that – at the same time, I’ve proven this a myth when comparing Matt Ryan to bigger guys and time missed due to injury. Goff could add another 10 LBs and get to Tom Brady’s weight.
ARM STRENGTH: must be able to stretch the field with his arm and make all the throws with very good velocity and touch.
Goff and Wentz have that.
INTELLIGENCE: ability to make pre-snap reads, change plays pre-snap, go through progressions post-snap and make the correct read.
Goff has that. Wentz is said to stare down WR quite frequently, though he is supposed to be smart.
OFFENSIVE SYSTEM: experience in a pro style offense is very favorable in that the candidate has to be able to take the snap from under center at the next level.
You don’t make the pre-snap from under center – you make it on the walk to being under center. Huddle to there is the most important part of being a QB in pre-snap reads.
Furthermore – Hue Jackson is our coach and will be calling our plays. *Andy Dalton had 386 attempts last year. 320 of them were out of the shotgun. (83%). Goff was in a pro-style system that is more equated with what we’d do under Hue Jackson.
MECHNAICS: proper mechanics is the key to delivering the football accurately and consistently. Footwork, shoulder positioning and arm/hand positioning are all factors for this.
Goff has that. You say Wentz does – so they both have it.
LEADERSHIP: your QB is the field general, so he must have the ability to rally his troops and get the job done. the QB needs to have command in the huddle.
CHARACTER: After what we’ve seen in Cleveland over the past 2 seasons with Johnny Manziel, you’re greatly mistaken if you think that character doesn’t matter.Both fit that bill.
COACHABILITY: the QB must be able to take instruction from coaches and apply it in practice and during game time.
This is a big assumption for any player. That said – both fit it.
Carson Wentz checks the box beside every single category. THAT’S why I want him wearing brown and orange for the next dozen years or so. The other QB prospects fall short in checking all the boxes. Some may come close, but this is the kid for my money if I’m an NFL personnel guy.
Goff checks every box except the one that 75% of NFL starters don’t reach of being 235+LBs (including Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Russell Wilson – all Super Bowl winners. Eli Manning weighs a whopping 3 LBs more than Goff and has 2 rings).
Goff clearly beats him in time at the position and talent played against. He’s also more accustomed to the shotgun of which Hue Jackson’s offense operates from.
Let me add that as a freshmen Hackenberg looked like the real deal. However, he never progressed from there. Wentz has only 1.5 years starting. That’s not enough to go on (IMO) to grab a guy at #2. He’s the biggest reach in this draft. Don’t be surprised if he falls to the end of round 1. FYI – Derek Carr – who you loved in last years draft – is 6’4″ 217 LBs. Why wasn’t he too light to play if Goff is?
*http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/14012/andy-daltonFreedom!!!
I take it that he’s on ignore for you because you’re tired of him proving exactly how little you know about the game and are fed up with being embarrassed.
Are you truly that naïve to think that Hue Jackson won’t give his QB the option to audible out of a bad play when he recognizes a mismatch due to personnel and formation? If so, you must be some special kind of stupid.
The “Air Raid” offensive system is not a pro style system. It’s a niche high school and college system that hasn’t been proven at the NFL level.
Also, Goff’s bone structure is slight and narrow. Dude, take off your rose colored glasses, open your eyes and LOOK at him. Look at those spindly legs and tell me that his frame is not a concern.
Then there’s the mechanics involved with a QB taking snaps from under center. Jackson’s not going to have his QB in the gun every single play. Goff hasn’t done that, Soup, which means that’s one more thing he has to learn and get accustomed to doing.
Then there’s arm strength . . . Goff has arm strength on the lines of Colt McCoy. What he has to his advantage is that he does anticipate throws rather well.
Finally, you’re all too quick to flippantly cast off any argument that is contrary to your ignorant and illinformed mindset.
Am I going mad, or did the word THINK escape your lips? You were not hired for your brains, you hippopotamic landmass!
I take it that he’s on ignore for you because you’re tired of him proving exactly how little you know about the game and are fed up with being embarrassed.
He’s on ignore because he’s an ignorant jack ass who’s a bigoted POS. He’s been on ignore since Ice added the function.
Are you truly that naïve to think that Hue Jackson won’t give his QB the option to audible out of a bad play when he recognizes a mismatch due to personnel and formation? If so, you must be some special kind of stupid.
I’m not sure what you are talking about with audibles I never stated Hue doesn’t let people audible. I stated that 83% of Andy Dalton’s attempts came out of the shotgun.
The “Air Raid” offensive system is not a pro style system. It’s a niche high school and college system that hasn’t been proven at the NFL level.
That’s nice, what does the air raid offense have to do with Goff? He doesn’t run it.
http://www.californiagoldenblogs.com/2013/6/17/4405736/cal-football-previewing-the-bear-raid-offense
Also, Goff’s bone structure is slight and narrow. Dude, take off your rose colored glasses, open your eyes and LOOK at him. Look at those spindly legs and tell me that his frame is not a concern.
His frame is not a concern. He’s 2 LBS lighter than Matt Ryan, he’s 3 LBs lighter than Eli Manning. All 3 guys are 6’4″.
Then there’s the mechanics involved with a QB taking snaps from under center. Jackson’s not going to have his QB in the gun every single play. Goff hasn’t done that, Soup, which means that’s one more thing he has to learn and get accustomed to doing.
One more thing? So he has to learn to gain some weight and to take snaps from center? Spread offenses rule college more and more. His mechanics are stellar. Learning to take a snap under center won’t be an issue.
Then there’s arm strength . . . Goff has arm strength on the lines of Colt McCoy. What he has to his advantage is that he does anticipate throws rather well.
According to all scouting reports I’ve read (every one of them) he has the arm to make EVERY NFL THROW. You don’t need more than that – unless of course you are in the habit of throwing late and waiting until the player is open. In fact – the most compared player overall (including arm strength) is Matt Ryan.
Finally, you’re all too quick to flippantly cast off any argument that is contrary to your ignorant and illinformed mindset.
So now you want to slam me. Instead, why don’t you talk about the talent Wentz played against? Why don’t you talk about the fact he started for 1.5 years? You’ve yet to talk about those points. Also, I’m still waiting to hear why Derek Carr was a great prospect and was fine height and weight wise when he’s 2 LBs heavier than Goff and the same height.
As for illinformed – why do you dismiss 75% of NFL starters as being too small for the position – including multiple Super Bowl winners? You said 235LBs was the ideal people look for. If that’s the ideal – why are 24 starting QBs not at that weight?
Freedom!!!
LOL He runs the Air Raid aka Bear Raid you jackass soup. Dana Holgorsen who runs the Air Raid a WV has said the offence can be fully installed in 3 DAYS.
It is the SAME ROOT offence that gave the Browns Weeden and Manziel recently. It comes from the same coaching tree. Do some research you ignorant ass.
http://cloudassetserver.com/STL/posts/185/sp_04_976x0.jpg
I take it that he’s on ignore for you because you’re tired of him proving exactly how little you know about the game and are fed up with being embarrassed.
It actually has nothing whatsoever to do with football.
He’s on ignore for me for the same reasons Soup listed, and then some. On top of being a racist, bigoted asshole who constantly displayed his complete disregard and hatred for all who believed anything other than his particular way of life and started argument after argument after argument attacking, berating, and insulting them for months on end, he went uber psychotic and contacted a number of board posters through Facebook to spew hateful messages and make threats on a completely personal level.
He’s a genuinely vile human being, and doesn’t give even 1 fuck about it. The guy is a bad egg Bill. No BS.
Also, if Soup put everyone on ignore who’s proved him wrong when it comes to football, he’d have been talking to just himself years ago lol.
I take it that he’s on ignore for you because you’re tired of him proving exactly how little you know about the game and are fed up with being embarrassed.
It actually has nothing whatsoever to do with football.
He’s on ignore for me for the same reasons Soup listed, and then some. On top of being a racist, bigoted asshole who constantly displayed his complete disregard and hatred for all who believed anything other than his particular way of life and started argument after argument after argument attacking, berating, and insulting them for months on end, he went uber psychotic and contacted a number of board posters through Facebook to spew hateful messages and make threats on a completely personal level.
He’s a genuinely vile human being, and doesn’t give even 1 fuck about it. The guy is a bad egg Bill. No BS.
Also, if Soup put everyone on ignore who’s proved him wrong when it comes to football, he’d have been talking to just himself years ago lol.I feel the same about you shooter as you continually bashed traditional American’s views and then ABUSED your moderator powers when I would beat your head in with facts.
But hey All I was talking was QB’s and football till Soup and Shooter started ATTACKING me personally. They have yet to offer very much anything very robust on the QB topic.
http://cloudassetserver.com/STL/posts/185/sp_04_976x0.jpg
Let’s look at their weaknesses to see where improvement is needed:
Wentz:
Weaknesses
•Needs to speed up everything, decisions come too slow – (Against inferior college talent)•Want his internal clock in the pocket to accelerate, can hold the ball too long (Against inferior college talent)
•Struggles to read defenses and more intricate coverages
•Will trust his arm too much, forcing passes into coverage
•Needs work at moving through progressions, rarely moves off of first read or flips field with his eyes
•When moving to second read will sometimes panic and rip it without reading coverage(Against inferior college talent)•Holds ball too low in his stance, elevating it will expedite delivery
•Deep ball accuracy is inconsistent, drops some dimes but misses vertical shots too
•Ball placement is a big concern, makes receivers adjust to off-target throws too often – (This = mid round pick. This is the biggest red flg of all. This describes Derek Anderson to a T – as well as Mallet and Jake Locker)•Decisions come too slow to make anticipatory throws, allows coverage to recover
•Bad tendency to throw where receiver was or is, rather than where they are going (Against inferior college talent)•Will stare down targets and pre-determine throws regardless of coverage
•At times will rock back and really load the ball up unnecessarily for driven throws(Against inferior college talent)•Only 22 games as a starter
•Broken wrist suffered in Week 6 of 2015 seasonGoff weaknesses:
•Ball location can be an issue, accurate enough to hit target, but not in ideal spot
•Forces receivers to make tough adjustments at times, even on rhythm throws
•Good, not great velocity, throws to the far hash can dip significantly
•Will occasionally force throws off his back foot under pressure
•Spread offense created a lot of big windows and first read throws, inflated production
•Inconsistent deep ball accuracy, rushes throws a bit and sails the ball
•Predetermines throws pre-snap at times
•Took almost every snap from shotgun, will need work on drops from under centerIt’s pretty clear from the weakness standpoint that Wentz has a far greater hill to climb. His accuracy and inability to read coverages should knock him out of the first round. Put his same qualities in a guy who’s 6’0 and he’s a 5th round project.
Now re-read the weaknesses- notice the major differences – Goff’s weaknesses quite often include the words “at times” while Wentz includes “tendency” “big concern” and “struggles.”
Wentz struggles are all things that will lead to a complete failure in the NFL if major corrections aren’t made. Wentz is all hype due to size and arm strength. He’s best described as Ryan Mallet, Jake Locker or Derek Anderson.
http://thedraftwire.usatoday.com/2016/01/06/2016-nfl-draft-scouting-report-california-qb-jared-goff/
Freedom!!!
I quit reading when DawgSoldier started his bullshit made up smear campaign against Goff. It’s well noted that Goff is a gym and film rat. But of course DS makes shit up as he goes along. This is exactly why I’ve stopped posting here as much.
I quit reading when DawgSoldier started his bullshit made up smear campaign against Goff. It’s well noted that Goff is a gym and film rat. But of course DS makes shit up as he goes along. This is exactly why I’ve stopped posting here as much.
Under the names there’s a link that says “ignore user.” Click it and all traces of him disappear. It’s the best “ignore” function I’ve ever seen. Use it on him and join the discussion. I have no clue what he’s saying. It’s a beautiful thing.
Freedom!!!
Jared Goff is going to be the best qb in this draft Class. It amazes me how many times people talk about Goff’s size yet it was Wentz who missed significant time. Goff took a ton of sacks and didn’t get hurt. Also, a lot of teams have started having qbs wear braces on their plant leg. Non issue.
I quit reading when DawgSoldier started his bullshit made up smear campaign against Goff. It’s well noted that Goff is a gym and film rat. But of course DS makes shit up as he goes along. This is exactly why I’ve stopped posting here as much.
And what did I make up? I can back everything up I said. Also Wunkle and I have said about the same thing about Goff as well? Is he making up stuff as well?
Oh and as far as Goff not getting hurt. Did you miss the part where Goff had have his shoulder surgically repaired? Come on mav.
http://cloudassetserver.com/STL/posts/185/sp_04_976x0.jpg
Actually disagree on this. I believe in Hue. I believe that if they take a qb at two, they believe his floor is Andy Dalton. I’m for the first time throwing my entire support behind whoever they pick. Gonna switch it up.
Another QB question: Browns IMO ARE going to take a QB 2.
The Browns are also are projected to get 3 comp picks giving them 10 picks overall.
They are projected to have 1 at the bottom of the 4th round and 1 at the top of the 5th round.
What are all your thoughts about drafting a 2nd QB around here like Washington did with Kurt Cousins? Someone like C.Hackenberg C.Jones or N.Sudfeld to develop as well as a back up policy to the #2 pick and or an eventual trade asset.
Thoughts?
http://cloudassetserver.com/STL/posts/185/sp_04_976x0.jpg
Bruce Feldman interviews Wentz’s NDST head coach.
http://cloudassetserver.com/STL/posts/185/sp_04_976x0.jpg
Actually disagree on this. I believe in Hue. I believe that if they take a qb at two, they believe his floor is Andy Dalton. I’m for the first time throwing my entire support behind whoever they pick. Gonna switch it up.
If they take Wentz I’ll be very skeptical, however I’ll wait to see him on the field.
Freedom!!!
Here’s everything you ever wanted to know about Goff.
https://realfootballnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Jared_Goff_2015.pdf
https://realfootballnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Jared-Goff-Scouting-Report.pdf
https://realfootballnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Jared-Goff-Passing-Chart-2015.pdfFeldman interview of Cook.
http://cloudassetserver.com/STL/posts/185/sp_04_976x0.jpg
I guess I’d wonder what Hue sees in him, but I’ll support him even though I Want Goff. But I figure we got the changes I wanted, we got the best coaching candidate in Hue. We brought back Horton who neither you nor I wanted gone. Eventually shit has to go right. Right? Lol
The problem is Joey Bosa is the best player in this years draft and most likely he will not go number 1. How can Cleveland Browns pass on JJ Watts 2.0?
Yes we need a QB….but its deeper than that. The organization needs an attitude change. The Organization has zero leadership. A rookie QB will never do well here. The tradition is losing and that will never change until it starts from the top and the vets.
Hue Jackson is a loser.
Done
Glad to see you are posting some more….whether we argue or agree, we both agree shooter is an idiot / jk
I don’t know about you Mav, but Soup’s latest rants about drafting a QB are making me think someone hacked his account. For years he would always say that was the last piece of the offense. Until a team can run the ball 35+ times a game, a qb is worthless.
Hue Jackson is a loser.
whether we argue or agree, we both agree shooter is an idiot / jk
I think that that is universally accepted common knowledge. Up there with “the Earth is round”, and when you stub your toe there will always be just long enough of a delay of the pain for you to think “oh man this is going to hurt really ba……AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!”
The problem is Joey Bosa is the best player in this years draft and most likely he will not go number 1. How can Cleveland Browns pass on JJ Watts 2.0?
Yes we need a QB….but its deeper than that. The organization needs an attitude change. The Organization has zero leadership. A rookie QB will never do well here. The tradition is losing and that will never change until it starts from the top and the vets.I’d pass on Watt for Aaron Rodgers or Big Ben anyday of the week. While the defenses dominated this past Super Bowl (much to my love as it’s my favorite part of the game) it was #1 overall pick vs #1 overall pick at the QB position. The team leader is the QB — on both sides of the ball. The more the defense believes in the QB the better they play and more confident they are – allowing them to play looser rather than play tight with fear that one mistake means the game is over.
Aside from that – Bosa plays for OSU – he will be a bust. The only OSU player worth anything is Zeke. That kid will be a great NFL back.
Freedom!!!
Aside from that – Bosa plays for OSU – he will be a bust. The only OSU player worth anything is Zeke. That kid will be a great NFL back.
1 *Joey Bosa DE 1 Ohio State Jr 6-5 275 1
13 *Ezekiel Elliott RB 1 Ohio State Jr 6-0 225 1
18 *Darron Lee OLB 2 Ohio State rSo 6-1 235 1
20 Taylor Decker OT 3 Ohio State Sr 6-7 315 1
32 *Eli Apple CB 4 Ohio State rSo 6-1 200 1-2
35 *Michael Thomas WR 3 Ohio State rJr 6-3 210 1-2
46 Joshua Perry OLB 6 Ohio State Sr 6-4 253 2
53 *Vonn Bell SS 2 Ohio State Jr 5-11 205 2
68 Adolphus Washington DT 9 Ohio State Sr 6-4 297 2-3
80 Braxton Miller WR 10 Ohio State rSr 6-1 204 2-3
93 Nick Vannett TE 3 Ohio State rSr 6-6 256 3
139 *Cardale Jones QB 7 Ohio State rJr 6-5 250 4-5
184 *Tyvis Powell FS 6 Ohio State rJr 6-3 209 5-6
268 *Jalin Marshall WR 34 Ohio State rSo 5-11 205 7-FA
415 Jacoby Boren C 15 Ohio State Sr 6-1 285 ––
459 Corey SmithInjured WR 55 Ohio State rSr 6-0 195 ––
471 Chase Farris OG 30 Ohio State rSr 6-4 306 ––
860 Tommy SchuttInjured DT 61 Ohio State Sr 6-2 290 ––29 *Noah Spence OLB 5 Eastern Kentucky/OSU rJr 6-3 254 1-2
I love when Soup makes VASTLY stupid statements like that. As the likely hood of him being VASTLY WRONG are VERY VERY high.
http://cloudassetserver.com/STL/posts/185/sp_04_976x0.jpg
The problem is Joey Bosa is the best player in this years draft and most likely he will not go number 1. How can Cleveland Browns pass on JJ Watts 2.0? Yes we need a QB….but its deeper than that. The organization needs an attitude change. The Organization has zero leadership. A rookie QB will never do well here. The tradition is losing and that will never change until it starts from the top and the vets.
I’d pass on Watt for Aaron Rodgers or Big Ben anyday of the week. While the defenses dominated this past Super Bowl (much to my love as it’s my favorite part of the game) it was #1 overall pick vs #1 overall pick at the QB position. The team leader is the QB — on both sides of the ball. The more the defense believes in the QB the better they play and more confident they are – allowing them to play looser rather than play tight with fear that one mistake means the game is over.
Aside from that – Bosa plays for OSU – he will be a bust. The only OSU player worth anything is Zeke. That kid will be a great NFL back.They won a National Championship. If you think the only player on the Buckeyes is any good, that would make sense about your football opinion. You probably didn’t watch the Super Bowl and didn’t notice the 3 players playing for Carolina that were also Buckeyes.
Was Turdburger or Rodgers picked in the top 5? You think Goff is anything like those two? Show me some statistic (or Soupstitics) of their college careers that you think Goff is anything like these two you are comparing.
Hue Jackson is a loser.
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