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Instant upgrade on defense. #1 overall pick will be defense.
I’m actually excited about this move. Gives me a lot of hope for the future.
Instant upgrade on defense. #1 overall pick will be defense.
I’m actually excited about this move. Gives me a lot of hope for the future.Anything less than a top 10 defense in points allowed and this move is a complete and utter failure. Give Greg Williams the roster Horton had to work with – and nothing more – the defense finishes exactly the same.
http://www.espn.com/nfl/team/depth/_/name/cle/formation/3-4-defense
We were pulling other peoples draft picks off practice squads. Off the top of my head:
Desmond Bryant – IR before the season (most experienced DE)
Jordan Poyer – most competent safety. Couldn’t cover but had some tackling ability. IR week 3 (?)
Armonty Bryant – expected to be a big pass rusher – cut for substance abuse.
Nate Orchard IR week 1 (?) starting OLBAnything less than a top 10 scoring defense is a complete and utter failure. FYI
Rams were 23rd blowing 24.9 PPG We allowed 28.4. A 3 point difference. Oh joy – major upgrade [/sarcasm]
Rams had a whopping 5 more sacks than we did. Ooh joy. Did I fail to mention they had 3 1st round picks on their d-line and all they could muster was 21 sacks?
Greg Williams is a mirage. A guy that had one lucky season where the Saints caused 35 turnovers. He could only muster 21 sacks with 3 first round picks on the line – that’s pathetic.
The end.
Freedom!!!
I’m encouraged too Shooter. It’s nice to have a “killer” leading the defense. DO you have any doubt that if Jerome Harrison KO’s our next Colt McCoy that Williams won’t extract a pound of flesh from Big Ben? I don’t.
Give Greg Williams the roster Horton had to work with
That is, exactly what is happening Soup. Sure, we’ll have the draft. We might grab a few guys in Free Agency. But most of our players came from the 4-3 in college and have played it in the majority of their lives. They’re going to be better in the 4-3 for the mere fact it doesn’t require special personnel. I’m not bashing the 3-4, it can be done, and when done well, it can be EXTREMELY effective. We haven’t had the right combination of Coach and Personnel to make that happen.
Rams were 23rd blowing 24.9 PPG We allowed 28.4. A 3 point difference. Oh joy – major upgrade [/sarcasm]
As for the Rams stats with Williams as the coordinator, you’ve chosen to willfully overlook some very positive stats for Williams. The Rams 5.2 yards per attempt (total yards/Scrimmage plays) was 5.2 (tied for 8th) compared to the Browns 5.9 (26th), The Rams caused 19 fumbles, 8 of which they kept, compare to the Browns 12 forced fumbles, 3 of which they kept. The Rams rushing defense ranked 16th, giving up 1,660 yards compared to Cleveland, who ranked 31st and gave up 2,283 yards. The Rams ranked 10th in passing offense allowing 3,732 yards while the Browns ranked 21st, giving up 3,996 yards. And while the Rams might have only had 5 more sacks than we did (still an improvement), Aaron Donald recorded 31 hurries, good enough for 4th in the NFL while the Browns leader, Emmanuel Ogbah, recorded 18. All this in spite of the fact that the Rams offense turned the ball over 5 more times than the Browns offense did, their turnover differential was still lower than the Browns. And while their defense only ranked 24th this year, it ranked 10th in 2015 and 16th in 2014 with Williams as the DC.
It’s telling that even the stats you cherry picked didn’t even show that Williams did worse, they only showed he was only a little better. That says a lot considering the Head Coach was fired mid season (we all know what that does to your locker room). When you look at the rest of the stats (and consider his performances with the Saints as well) Williams is head and shoulders above Horton. Additionally, the 4-3 is going to be easy to draft and recruit for than the 3-4.
You have to tone it down a peg man. This can’t be good for your heart.
Anything less than a top 10 scoring defense is a complete and utter failure. FYI
Explain to me, in rational terms, how finishing 11th in scoring defense (especially considering we don’t know who we’ll draft or sign in Free Agency) is a complete and utter failure when in 2016 we finished 30th.
818 mph. 13,723 feet. 3 second burn.
https://youtu.be/hy-3bb1Nqy0Take into account 3 first round picks on the line and I’m not impressed at all.
As for the roster, no, Williams roster will be vastly different. First, it’ll have more experience. 2nd, Ed Reynolds and Tramon Williams won’t be his starting safeties. He’ll have Poyer, Bryant, Orchard and Kindred all off IR. I highly doubt his starting DL will be Nassib, Meder, Shelton and Ogbah.
If Horton is being fired for performance than Hue better fire himself from OC. 30th overall offense and 31st in points per game.
Williams history proves he’s a lower tier DC. Our front office proved that they hate continuity after preaching it. They proved to me that none of them will be here in 2018.
Haslam clearly demanded a firing. Haslam will force us into a terrible QB 1st overall and everyone will get fired. Mark my words. We are taking Watson #1
Freedom!!!
Horton is a good coach, but he runs a very complicated scheme. Our defense is half rookies who came from simplistic schemes.
Williams has run hybrid 4-3/3-4 defenses in the past so I’m not worried about him trying to shoehorn us into something that doesn’t fit our players.
Soup: you realize that by predicting we win 4 games next year you’re saying our team will be 4x as good…. that’s unheard of improvement. I never knew you were such an optimist.
Greg Williams is a mirage.
Oh stop with the negativity, doom and gloom, and ultimatums. “He better finnish with a top ten defense or this is a complete and utter failure”. Get the fuck outta here with that shit, what is that even supposed to mean? If we finish 11th and have a defense that is at least competitive, keeps us in games, creates turnovers and gets to the QB while stopping the run, is that “utter failure”? You wanna know what “utter failure” is? Last years defense. Yes, admittedly the roster was a huge handicap, but the fact of the matter is we still sucked huge ass at an alarming rate. The defense was putrid. Infuse some more talent through the draft, FA, and getting some players healthy again, add in a better scheme to fit our personnel, and the making for a solid defense are right there. I expect a strong, marked improvement next year.
The guy has run multiple top ten defenses on multiple teams, culminating with a dominating squad that won a Superbowl by beating the vaunted Peyton Manning led offense while leading the league in turnovers. He runs an ultra aggressive, run-stuffing 4-3 predicated on punishing the QB. Ray Horton have that resume? Didn’t think so.
The D-line/front 7 alone next year could be nasty. With Danny Shelton clogging the middle and Nassib and Ogbah rushing the QB from their natural end spots. Add in Myles Garret (NOT at OLB but instead pinning his ears back and wreaking havoc from his NATURAL position of end in a 4-3 like in college) and that could do some very serious damage and disrupt the lives of QB’s in our division. Jamie Collins at LB and getting Dez Bryant back healthy……I’m actually becoming more and more excited and optimistic about this the more I ponder it.
Will we be dominant? No. That’s too much of a turnaround to expect. But we will at least be competitive. That alone is somethig we haven’t had in years on that side of the ball. Sacks and turnovers will see a significant jump. Getting off the field on 3rd downs will increase. I’d consider a jump from 31st in the league to say, 13th or 14th to be a fantastic improvement. And that is realistic.
Poo-poo, eyeroll, and Negative Nancy this all you want Soup, but you’re not going to escape the fact that this is a massive upgrade for our defense, and for the Browns in general.
Despite Soup’s gloom and doom (though I understand and agree that Horton was given inadequate personnel and generally treated unfairly), it’s not all bad news.
From: http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/01/browns_dc_candidate_gregg_will.html
Here are some other things to know about Williams:
* A disciple of the legendary Buddy Ryan, he runs an attack-minded 4-3 scheme, which is a departure from current defensive coordinator Ray Horton’s 3-4 front.
* His 26 NFL seasons include 15 as a defensive coordinator. As either coordinator or head coach, he’s coached eight top-10 defenses.
* He’s also presided over five consensus top-five defenses: Tennessee (No. 1 in total defense in 2000), Buffalo (No. 3 in 2001 and No. 2 in 2003), Washington (No. 3 in 2005), and New Orleans (No. 4 in 2010).
* Williams was defensive coordinator of the Saints from 2009-2011. He helped them to two division titles (2009 and 2011), an NFC Conference Championship (2009), and Super Bowl XLIV, as well as an NFC Wild Card berth in 2010.
* He went 17-31 in his three seasons as Bills head coach.
Additionally, from the land of twitter we get this little nugget from former Buckeye James Laurinaitis: Cleveland if you’re getting Gregg Williams, you’re getting a great leader, amazing coach, and one of my favorite people!! Culture Changer!!
Recall also that Ogbah was a 4-3 DE who we failed to convert to OLB in Horton’s 3-4, and the 2017 front 4 looks imposing: Ogbah and Garrett at DE, Meder and Shelton at DT, with Carl Nassib as quality depth at end. Especially when it was said of Garrett:
“As a freshman, he got plenty of sacks, but he was also flurried against some of the average competition. Last season, I saw growth in his game, and in his strength, with no loss of quickness or speed off the edge. And, he gave the best OTs he played against fits — Cam Robinson from Alabama to name one. The name of the game of defensive football is ‘sic ’em’ and he does it very well.” — NFC South scout
The scoop: “He’s a 4-3 (scheme) guy. He can beat tackles over and over with speed and quickness. You don’t always see consistent speed-to-power transition with guys like that, because the speed is all he needs. That doesn’t mean the power isn’t there, it just means he’ll need to play through blockers more at the next level than he does now. When you’re facing one of the top 32 left tackles in the world, athleticism can get neutralized.”– NFC West scout
Finally, I’ll leave you with this little gem:
818 mph. 13,723 feet. 3 second burn.
https://youtu.be/hy-3bb1Nqy0Not excited in the least. Yes, the D was putrid. No great D in the NFL had safeties as terrible as ours. They took bad angle after bad angle on runs and had zero ability to cover. It is 100% impossible to have a viable D with safeties that terrible. That’s a fact. Crennel, Labeau and the Cheifs DC would shake their heads if they were forced to put a D on the field with those safeties.
Freedom!!!
Agreed, saftey is an issue.
We couuuuuuuld, sign a safety in Free Agency. We couuuuuuuld draft a saftey. We couuuuuuuuld do both. Hey hey problem solved!
Not excited in the least.
Of course you’re not. Having a defense that can actually play, be competitive and help our team actually win football games for a change would completely take away your ability to bitch and moan. That would really suck now wouldn’t it?
Agreed, saftey is an issue.
We couuuuuuuld, sign a safety in Free Agency. We couuuuuuuld draft a saftey. We couuuuuuuuld do both. Hey hey problem solved!Not excited in the least.
Of course you’re not. Having a defense that can actually play, be competitive and help our team actually win football games for a change would completely take away your ability to bitch and moan. That would really suck now wouldn’t it?
It’s Hortons fault. All of it. We have no need for anyone knew in D. We need to cut all the guys on IR. Greg Williams is the best ever so keep the D cheap and exactly like it was and let him work his magic.
Or are you suggesting players make the difference?
Freedom!!!
I’m suggesting that one coach is better than the other.
Of course players make a difference. Hence the need to add more um, players. I’m not sure if you know this, but there’s a draft coming up. In that draft, the browns are allowed to pick new players to add to their team. It’s a neat little thing the League does every year. Also, we can sign other players from other teams. It’s called free agency. A player who played on one team, is allowed to sign a contract with a different team. The Browns are actually allowed to participate in this event as well. it’s another neat little thing the league puts on.
To steal from the Papa Johns Slogan: “Better coaches and players, better defense. Cleveland Browns”
So you are against continuity. If Crennel is available next year we should fire Williams and hire Crennel and go back to the 3-4 is what you are saying.
Freedom!!!
We’ll be drafting players to replace the guys we’ll end up cutting because “they don’t fit” or “they couldn’t make the transition” or they just aren’t what Williams is looking for. That’s why we don’t have Jabaal Sheard anymore.
We’ve been doing it for years. From Kenaed Lang to Kam Wimbley to Ahtyba Rubin to Jabaal Sheard to whoever the. Ext guy will be. We change schemes and then some guys can’t transition so we have to replace them and we can’t replace them overnight so we suck so we change schemes and some guys can’t transition so we have to replace and and we can’t replace them overnight we suck and we change schemes….
Meanwhile we get rid of our 2 starting safeties, our 2 most recent 1st round picks at CB and OLB flame out, and we get rid of our best defensive player in Karlos Dansby, Orchard, Bryant, and Bryant miss basically the whole season (Bryant cut), and we expect Horton to perform a miracle with A 2nd and 3rd round rookie and Jamar Taylor that we got for a ham sandwich.
Demario Davis was a key defensive addition. Read that again. That’s f’in pathetic. If I told you before he season that Boddy-Calhoun and Ed Reynolds would be starting you’d have said “who the fuck are these guys?” You might as well ask Horton to paint a masterpiece with a box of crayons.
Fact is, Horton had nothing to work with, and because it’s a different system, Williams now has less. All we’re doing is creating more holes in a roster that already resembles a sieve.
So you are against continuity. If Crennel is available next year we should fire Williams and hire Crennel and go back to the 3-4 is what you are saying.
The fact that we ever sign coaches to multi year deals is mindblowing to me. Haslam could save so much money if he only issued 1 year contracts.
Greg Williams creates and implements systems based on the strengths of his players. His defense is a 4-3 hybrid. That means that the few strengths we do have, will not be changing at all.
All of our main players we have on Defense i.e, Ogbah, Nassib, Shelton, Kirksey, Haden, Bryant and Collins will be staying. Not only will they be staying, but they will playing in a system that accentuates their abilities, and returns them more to the systems that they played at and excelled in in college.
What’s the problem with that? Please, explain it to me. Our safeties sucked. Get new safeties. We need another corner. So add another corner. Our front 7 actually looks promising now. No more Ogbah and Nassib playing out of position at linebacker, they go back to being ends. Same thing when we draft Garret (which we will now). Go get the QB. Crush him. Cream the RB with the ball. Kirksey and Collins should be able to both flourish at linebacker now. No more complicated coverages and schemes from the 3-4. Fill the gaps, blitz hard, kill the QB.
I’m really beginning to think that you guys don’t understand what it is that we’re changing to, and why it is a needed change. You want to bring up players that match a system, and the fact of the matter is our players didn’t match the system we were running. That, was a big problem. We didn’t have 3-4 personnel, we had 4-3 personnel trying to play a 3-4, and a complicated one at that. It failed miserably. Now, we have a system that plays to the players strengths.
Do you seriously not understand this?
So you are against continuity.
Not if we’re doing something wrong. (And were most definitely doing that. It was wrong). Why would you want to continue to do something wrong? What sense does that make? You want another 1-15 season with a 31st ranked defense? Do you want that again just for the sake of “continuity”? That’s what we would have had. That’s stupid.
All these complicated x’s and o’s and coverages and blah blah blah. Screw that. That’s not the strength of the players we have. Now, pin your ears back and get the QB. Fill your gap. Keep it simple.
This is a massive, massive upgrade and now plays to our strengths instead of exposing our weaknesses.
But wail and moan if it makes you feel better. Personally I like winning, and I can see clearly that this helps us to do that very thing, so I’m going to be happy.
So you want But Jackson fired? He’s the OC and offensive genius. our offense matched the defense in ineptitude. I believe 30th overall and 31st in scoring. We should make a change to someone better…
I understand that Williams is average at best as a DC. I don’t care where they rank in yards. I care more about points against just like on offense points for is more important than yardage.
I could be wrong but in my quick research once in his career he was top 10 points against.
Remember when you guys thought Pettine was all that on D when he was hired and I told you he was a bum? I looked at Rams commenters on the ESPN article. They are all happy to see him go because of how open guys were on D and how often they gave up leads. I’ll eat crow when we are top 10 in points against. Keep talking about this “attacking D” of his that just had a whopping 21 sacks this past year while fielding 3 1st round picks on the line.
Freedom!!!
I looked at Rams commenters on the ESPN article. They are all happy to see him go
Oh bullshit. I read the same article and have made numerous comments on it. The overwhelming majority of Rams fans have said the Browns have made a great hire and they’re pissed to see Williams go. The only people being negative about this are people who are similarly minded to you, and equally as ignorant on the subject.
I understand that Williams is average at best as a DC.
That’s because you don’t understand shit. Average? He’s coached 8 top 10 defenses, 5 top 5 defenses, and he won a Superbowl by beating Peyton Manning.
I honestly don’t think you know what the fuck “average” even means.
Remember when you guys thought Pettine was all that on D
No. I don’t. I never thought that.
How many top 10 in points allowed? That’s what matters. Not yards.
And it’s unquestionable that Crennel is far superior to Williams. So if he’s available in 2018 we need to fire Williams, hire Crennel and switch to the 3-4. After all, better coaches means better playing
Freedom!!!
As I stated, points per game allowed is all that matters. As a D you need to stop the opposition.
His last 3 years he was Rams DC:
16th
13th
23rdAverage of 17.3 rank out of 32 teams. Aka average.
Saints 2009-2011 (while paying players to injured the opponent)
20th
7th
13thAverage rank of 13.3. Ever so slightly above average
Jacksonville 2008
21st
Below average.
Redskins 2004-2007
5th
9th
27th
11thAverage rank of 13th
He started strong his first 2 years in Washington. Since then? Purely average.
Overall average rank of all combined? 15.9 out of 32. The very definition of average.
FYI ESPN doesn’t go back to his Titans years which is why 1997-2000 isn’t included.
Freedom!!!
This pretty much perfectly sums up my thoughts on the subject.
This year, the Rams won 3 games where the offense didn’t even score a touchdown.
Let that sink in for a minute.
And a Mike Florio article? Mike fucking Florio? The die-hard Steeler fan, Browns bashing asshole who loves nothing more than to take a shot at Cleveland literally ANY TIME HE POSSIBLY CAN? If the Browns cloned Peyton Manning and had a 23-year-old version of him to play QB next year, Mike Florio would write an article blasting how unethical cloning was, and would rail on endlessly about how the clones of Dolly the Sheep were never the same as Dolly. That’s how much of a Bitter Billy Mike fuckin Florio is when it comes to anything Browns related. There isn’t one person alive who doesn’t know that. The man is so immensely biased against Cleveland that it’s absolutely indisputable. Who gives two flying fucks what Mike Florio has to say about anything when it comes to our team? He knows absolutely jackshit. And he’s an idiot.
This year, the Rams won 3 games where the offense didn’t even score a touchdown.
Let that sink in for a minute.
And a Mike Florio article? Mike fucking Florio? The die-hard Steeler fan, Browns bashing asshole who loves nothing more than to take a shot at Cleveland literally ANY TIME HE POSSIBLY CAN? If the Browns cloned Peyton Manning and had a 23-year-old version of him to play QB next year, Mike Florio would write an article blasting how unethical cloning was, and would rail on endlessly about how the clones of Dolly the Sheep were never the same as Dolly. That’s how much of a Bitter Billy Mike fuckin Florio is when it comes to anything Browns related. There isn’t one person alive who doesn’t know that. The man is so immensely biased against Cleveland that it’s absolutely indisputable. Who gives two flying fucks what Mike Florio has to say about anything when it comes to our team? He knows absolutely jackshit. And he’s an idiot.You’re welcome to argue anything he wrote. He might be biased and he might be an idiot, but he’s right about this.
You’re welcome to argue anything he wrote. He might be biased and he might be an idiot, but he’s right about this.
My fuckin’ ass he is.
We need less linebackers? What kind of idiot shit is that? No, we just don’t need as many. There’s 1 less, obviously, in a 4-3. Big friggin deal. That means nothing. Literally. It means nothing. Thanks Mike, good on ya for pointing out math. You’re swell. Fuckin moron.
Same with the linemen. Oh, we need a few more? The hell you say?!! What a genius this guy is! No shit. Again though, big deal. We get a few more linemen.
What Mike dipshit Florio FAILED to point out or mention though, is that guys like Ogbah, Nassib, and Shelton all played in a 4-3 in college, so they’re going to be going back to their natural positions. Thus, making them better. That’s 3 linemen right there. We’re getting Bryant back, and we’re gonna draft Garret. Now we have 5 already. Oh the horror!!!
Jamie Collins, the prized stud from New England was working in a, wait for it, 4-3 under Belicheck!!! So, he goes back to HIS natural position. Kirksey? Take a guess.
“If the Browns were going to dump Horton, why not replace him with a 3-4 defensive coordinator?”
Gee, I don’t know Mike, maybe because ALL OF OUR PLAYERS THAT ARE WORTH KEEPING ARE SUITED FOR A 4-3!!!! Maybe? Did ya think about that at all there Floridiot?
Bryant, Shelton, Nassib, Ogbah, Kirksey, Collins, and the newly acquired Garret are all, I repeat ALL, suited to play the 4-3. It’s their strength.
So please, tell me again what Florio is right about? Tell me. I’ll refute every point he made in that bullshit, dogpuke article. The man has no clue what he’s talking about, and he’s just wow, so wrong.
It’s hard to go from a 3-4 to a 4-3? Well sure it is. It’s very difficult. In any normal situation. But it’s not when every player that you have who is worth anything IS FROM and SUITED FOR a 4-3.
Why do you think our defense was so bad to fucking begin with? I’ll tell you why? Because you had a bunch of 4-3 personnel trying to play complicated 3-4 football.
We just got rid of the complicated part, and are installing the kick ass part. Personnel is already there, minus a few pieces. That’s what the draft and FA are for.
Horton is a good coach, but he runs a very complicated scheme. Our defense is half rookies who came from simplistic schemes.
Williams has run hybrid 4-3/3-4 defenses in the past so I’m not worried about him trying to shoehorn us into something that doesn’t fit our players.
Soup: you realize that by predicting we win 4 games next year you’re saying our team will be 4x as good…. that’s unheard of improvement. I never knew you were such an optimist.Williams defense is extremely complex. It’s based off LB audibles and DB adjustments. As I said, it’s year 1 of the rebuild AGAIN. We actually just went backwards.
We were promised continuity. It’s not going to happen. Hopefully Watson turns out great because he’s our pick.
Freedom!!!
Shooter, arguing they’re suited for a 4-3 because they played it college holds no water. Is Terelle Pryor suited for QB because he played in college and it’s his “natural” position? No. Not in any way.
These guys were drafted for their potential to play in a 3-4. Just because they played a 4-3 in college doesn’t mean they can play it at he NFL level. That’s just fact. Some players will not be successful with the transition.
As for the numbers, I don’t know why that ruffles your feathers. We need an additional starting lineman and more depth, and we need fewer linebackers. It changes the way the groups are put together.
Furthermore, contracts all get hairier now because 4-3 DE’s don’t generally make the same amount as 3-4 OLB’s and it’s the same for every position in the front 7. And, some guys, like Jamie, might prefer to go elsewhere to play in a 3-4 because that’s what they signed up for in Cleveland.
There will be turnover from this. There just will. It’s inevitable.
Dawg E. Dawg you’re missing the point. The struggle that Florio was talking about is when you switch from a 3-4 to a 4-3, it’s difficult because you have to change personnel. You need to get player who can play a 3-4 instead of the 4-3.
We, don’t have that problem. We don’t because ours players, are all 4-3 personnel. Understand? We took a bunch of 4-3 players and tried to convert them to 3-4 players. It didn’t work. Now, we get to put them all back in a system that they are naturally suited for.
That’s my point. And it holds a ton of water. It’s immensely valid.
We need an additional starting lineman and more depth, and we need fewer linebackers. It changes the way the groups are put together.
Who gives a shit about how the “groups are put together”? I don’t even know what that means. As for lineman, yeah we need a few more. Okay, well, then we get a few more linemen. Problem solved.
And, some guys, like Jamie, might prefer to go elsewhere to play in a 3-4 because that’s what they signed up for in Cleveland.
I’m not really sure what this means either. #1, Collins didn’t sign up for anything here in Cleveland. He was traded to us. He had no say in the matter. #2, he was playing in a 4-3 in New England. #3, if we franchise tag him, guess what he’s going to be doing next year?
I don’t know why that ruffles your feathers.
Using Mike Floridiot as a source of information when it comes to the Browns. That really does it.
He’s completely wrong, and just wants to write bad shit about Cleveland because that’s all he ever does. He hates Cleveland. He loves and loves to mock our losing. He’s a born and bred die-hard Steelers fan.
Further, making the argument that it’s so difficult to change from a 3-4 to a 4-3 because your personnel has to change so drastically, when we already have 4-3 personnel woefully trying to play in a 3-4, makes no sense whatsoever. If all of our players were all suited for the 3-4, yes, that would be a monumental task and a grreat undertaking to change it all around. But when you already have a 4-3 squad……….um, it’s NOT HARD AT ALL!
Those 2 things ruffle my feathers.
Florio…I get that. He’s an idiot that always looks at football from a lawyer point of view. I can pick amour his articles without reading the author because their always ridiculous. This just happened to be one article I agreed with.
When it comes to “getting another lineman”, you seem to be brushing that aside, but it’s creating a hole on a team full of them. At some point, we have to address that we either money or draft capital, and we already have a ton of holes to address.
As for Jamie, he was a bad example, but the point I’m making is players don’t like signing up for one thing and getting another. When you change the position a guy plays, you change his earning potential, and it can create malcontent. That’s my point.
Lastly, your whole argument is that we wehave 4-3 personnel and we’re running a 3-4. If that were true, why the F was Horton hired?? Why we’re these guys drafted if their not suited for a 3-4?? It makes no sense at all. Either we’re so inept that we’ve been signing guys for the wrong system, or we were drafting for the system to come after the current system. How is any of that reassuring that we’re going to be better in the future??
Where are you getting all our guys are suited for the 4-3? Shelton has played in a 3-4 for 2 ywears. Kirksey for 3 (?). Bryant for multiple, etc. Aside from that – Williams defense is based off Buddy Ryans 4-6 defense – so no – it’s not a traditional 4-3. It’s also EXTREMELY complex and requires a massive football acumen to play it.
Here’s the issue you are truly missing. We taught young guys adefense last year – base defense to some young guys for multiple years. Everything they’ve been taught has to be thrown out the window. They need to learn new defense which requires new assignments – and in Williams D – it requires sight adjustments and audibles and EVERYONE on the same page. AKA – this D will still be a mess next year of guys unlearning what they learned at the NFL level to learn something new AGAIN. Kirksey and Shelton will be on their 3rd DC in the past 3 years. Nassib, Ogbah, Kindred, Calhoun and a host of other rookies will be on their 2nd in 2 years. The learning curve will be massive no matter how much you try and dismiss it.
Again – I can’t find the Tennessee years – but in his last 11 seasons as a DC his defenses rank is an average of 15.9 in points against out of 32 teams. The only one in the top 10 since 2005 in points againt was a year in which he paid guys to try and end players careers. Oh joy.
Continuity was thrown by the wayside in less then a year of screaming “trust the plan, stay the course. continuity i what we lacked so we are going to bring stability to the organization.”
It’s done. After this year say goodbye to this front office and staff unless we pull out a miracle 7 win+ season.
Freedom!!!
When it comes to “getting another lineman”, you seem to be brushing that aside,
Currently, we have Ogbah, Nassib, Shelton, Bryant, and Meder, and we’re going to draft Garret. That’s 6 linemen. Bryant Shelton Ogbah Nassib and Garret are all starter quality. Meder is decent. Then we still have Xavier Cooper, Wright and Holmes. Whether or not these guys stick around remains to be seen, but that’s 9 linemen. already that’s 4 starters and 4 backups +1. Not really that big of a deal to add a few more during FA, or late in the draft. So, yeah, I am kind of brushing it aside because I don’t think it’s at all an area of concern.
When you change the position a guy plays, you change his earning potential, and it can create malcontent. That’s my point.
I agree. So, wouldn’t you think then that guys like Shelton, Nassib, Ogbah, and Collins would be happier since they get to go back to playing the position that they’re better at? Where they were successful at? Instead of playing out of position like they were? I sure would think so.
Lastly, your whole argument is that we wehave 4-3 personnel and we’re running a 3-4. If that were true, why the F was Horton hired?? Why we’re these guys drafted if their not suited for a 3-4?? It makes no sense at all. Either we’re so inept
You answered your own question. I bolded it for you.
Starting to understand why we were 1-15 now lol?
Where are you getting all our guys are suited for the 4-3?
I don’t know, maybe the fact that that’s what they all played in college. Where they excelled. So much so that they were drafted.
Shelton, Ogbah, Nassib, all 4-3 linemen in college. Then they came here and were asked to play basically a completely new position. Collins was in a 4-3 in New England. Kirksey was an OLB in a 4-3 at Iowa. Garret, who we will picking at No.1, is in a 4-3 at DE. Bryant was in a 4-3 at Harvard and played DE in a 4-3 in Oakland.
Of the players that are worth keeping (i.e. impact/good/solid players) Ogbah, Nassib, Shelton, Kirksey, Collins, and Bryant…..all played in/came from/excelled in, a 4-3 defense.
So, that’s where I’m getting that from.
Jamie Meder? 4-3 at Ashland……
Gabe Wright? 4-3 defense at Auburn…..The learning curve will be massive no matter how much you try and dismiss it.
Lol.
Any reason you keep ignoring how complex Williams D is? Any reason you ignored it’s based off a 4-6? Any reason you ignored that Collins, Shelton and Kirksey all excelled in a 3-4? Not all 4-3 D is the same.
Finally, over 40% of our plays were nickel D.
Freedom!!!
Any reason you keep ignoring how complex Williams D is?
Williams caters his defense to the strengths of his players. It’s a hybrid, roots in the 4-6 of Buddy Ryan, elements of a 3-4, but at it’s core is a base 4-3. So, no, I’m not overly concerned about it as it’s going to be catered to what players can and can’t do.
It comes down to this really for me dude, Greg Williams is a better defensive coach, with a better scheme, than Ray Horton. We just got better man, that’s all their is to it. I’m never going to be upset about getting better. I’ll leave the moaning and wailing to you, then when you’re proven wrong, I’ll remind you lol.
Any reason you keep ignoring how complex Williams D is?
Williams caters his defense to the strengths of his players. It’s a hybrid, roots in the 4-6 of Buddy Ryan, elements of a 3-4, but at it’s core is a base 4-3. So, no, I’m not overly concerned about it as it’s going to be catered to what players can and can’t do.
It comes down to this really for me dude, Greg Williams is a better defensive coach, with a better scheme, than Ray Horton. We just got better man, that’s all their is to it. I’m never going to be upset about getting better. I’ll leave the moaning and wailing to you, then when you’re proven wrong, I’ll remind you lol.So his 3 1st round DL suck at rushing the passer so he didn’t rush them?
Not sure how else to explain only 21 sacks with that line.
And thanks for admitting his 4-3 isn’t even close to traditional there by admitting these guys aren’t familiar with it and have a whole new D to learn as I stated.
Freedom!!!
And thanks for admitting his 4-3 isn’t even close to traditional
I’ve only said that he runs a hybrid 4-3 about 10 times now. Do you know what “hybrid” means?
admitting these guys aren’t familiar with it and have a whole new D to learn as I stated.
I never said they wouldn’t have to learn a new defense. I mean, obviously, they will. But a better one.
If you were driving around in a mustang, and your boss came up to you and said “here, have this Porche instead”, are you gonna tell me that you’re going to be pissed about getting the Porche because you’d have to learn how to drive it? That’s basically what you sound like right now.
If you were driving around in a mustang, and your boss came up to you and said “here, have this Porsche instead”, are you gonna tell me that you’re going to be pissed about getting the Porche because you’d have to learn how to drive it? That’s basically what you sound like right now.
Depends on what kind of Porsche and what kind of Mustang honestly. Would I take a Cayman base model over a Shelby GT500? Probably not. I know the point you are trying to make (and I think it’s pretty well documented that I think Williams is an upgrade over Horton as well), but I think Soup’s argument is somewhat valid. Change your analogy so that it’s a blind test drive and all you had to go off of was vehicle performance. If you just took the cars around the dealership parking lot (i.e. giving them a single year with no personnel), you’re not going to get a good feel for what you’re actually driving. And I think that, more than anything, is Soup’s argument. We don’t know what we had in Horton this time around (who had a pair of top 10 defenses here in Cleveland once before). We blew it up before it even got started. I get the frustration there and I certainly think it’s justified.
As for who the “better” coordinator is, that (at least for now) is a matter of opinion. I like the hire. It’s easier to draft for the 4-3. Williams is fucking crazy in a “If you kill the head, the body will die” sort of way that should instill a sense of fear in the opposing team’s QB that hasn’t existed since the return. Harrison knocking out McCoy, Brown kicking our punter, Lewis sitting William Greene on his ass in the backfield, Terrelle Suggs destroying the QB du Jour. Gregg Williams is not going to let those slights go unchallenged.
One last thing, because it’s barely been addressed, while the Rams didn’t have a ton of sacks this year, they still had a ton of hurries. Aaron Donald had 31 hurries (4th in the NFL) while Ogbah recorded 18. As a team, LA recorded 101 hurries compared to Cleveland’s 84.
818 mph. 13,723 feet. 3 second burn.
https://youtu.be/hy-3bb1Nqy0Cleveland hurried the QB on 15.4% of opponents pass attempts. LA on 17.3% of pass attempts. Less than 2% difference as LA was thrown on 39 more times. Take the Browns up to 582 off stats and you get 89 hurries – 12 less than LA (who, again, had 3 1st round picks on the DL). That’s less than 1 hurry a game different.
LA’s pass D was better overall, of course, Gregg Williams didn’t have Tramon williams and Ed Reynolds starting at safety – nor did he have Campbell or Kindred.
Freedom!!!
Williams defense is extremely complex. It’s based off LB audibles and DB adjustments.
End around, double reverse A-gap hike fumble.
I can use football words too.
You know EVERY NFL defense relies on LB audibles and DB adjustments right? Unless you’re talking about a bunch of blind people playing defense and no one can see how the offense lined up. Then they don’t audible or make adjustments.
Trips right bullrush Bear Bryant Omaha crackback, motherfucker.
Williams defense is extremely complex. It’s based off LB audibles and DB adjustments.
End around, double reverse A-gap hike fumble.
I can use football words too.
You know EVERY NFL defense relies on LB audibles and DB adjustments right? Unless you’re talking about a bunch of blind people playing defense and no one can see how the offense lined up. Then they don’t audible or make adjustments.
Trips right bullrush Bear Bryant Omaha crackback, motherfucker.Yeah, okay, sureeee. Every DC, all 32, have stated that the defense doesn’t call what I call – they call what the LB calls.
His defense is known to be extremely complex. Your comment about Horton being g too complex is highly invalid in comparison.
And further evidence your comment was utterly asinine here’s a quote from 2013 about Gregg Williams defense from Matt Bowen. A 7 year NFL vet that played DB for Williams in Washington
“Williams’ scheme is complex. Multiple fronts, coverages, pressures, personnel packages, etc. There was a lot going on there. A defense that went deeper than anything I had experienced as a player.”
Next time you speak, try researching first
Freedom!!!
“Williams’ scheme is complex. Multiple fronts, coverages, pressures, personnel packages, etc.
Gosh, it almost sounds as if he runs a hybrid defense. Which I said about 20 posts ago.
But please tell me more about his LB audibles and DB adjustments. I’m really interesting in you going into more detail about them. Punt snapcount joker blitz buttfumble.
Sorry, not letting you escape your comment. You complained Horton runs a complicated defense. I gave you a quote from 2013 of a 7 year bet talking about how complicated Williams defense is when you attempted to put me down and act like it wasn’t more complicated than anyone else. You are unquestionably wrong. It’s a fact that Williams runs an extremely complex defense that hands the reigns over to the players on the field. This involves players calling the actual play. It’s way more complex than Horton. So unless we get an all veteran defense your young guys and rookies are going to have a massive learning curve.
Freedom!!!
So what you’re saying then Soup is that instead of installing a base defense and calling the formations in the beginning, Williams is going to unload the full defense and expect everyone to understand it completely right off the bat.
That’s what you’re saying?
This article (and videos) should be required reading and viewing for continued discourse on this subject:
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/01/a_gregg_williams_defense_5_thi.html
CLEVELAND, Ohio – The Browns hired Gregg Williams as defensive coordinator on Sunday, replacing Ray Horton after just one season.
Williams is a 26-season NFL coaching veteran, and has been a defensive coordinator for 15 seasons. So teams know what they’re getting when they hire Williams.
Mary Kay Cabot wrote about Williams’ background on Saturday. In the video at the top of this post you can see what those around the NFL have had to say about Williams in recent years.
To go along with that, here are five things Browns fans should know about a Gregg Williams defense:
1. A slice of Buddy Ryan
You will hear Ryan mentioned a lot now that Williams is with the Browns. He has described his defense as taking what Ryan built with the 46 defense, and built off it.
When Williams became Jeff Fisher’s defensive coordinator, Fisher wanted him to create a hybrid.
“I took George Allen, I took Buddy Ryan, I took Dick LeBeau. I took Bud Carson. I put them all together and now it’s kind of a Gregg Williams way that we do things,” Williams told NFL Network in 2016. “But there’s more Buddy Ryan in everything I do defensively, schematically, than anything.”
Here’s Williams talking with NFL Network about how he has been influenced by Ryan.
2. Linebackers and safeties must adapt
A key to Williams’ defense is having linebackers and safeties that can audible the defensive call to the offensive formation.
Perhaps the hiring of Williams makes extending the contract of linebacker Jamie Collins even more of a priority. Browns coaches raved this season about Collins’ football IQ. It might also mean the Browns look for an experienced safety in free agency to lead the largely inexperienced group it had in 2016.
In St. Louis, Williams had linebacker James Laurinaitis handling audibles on the field.
“I tell everyone all the time when they ask what defense we’re playing, we’re playing the defense James calls, not what I call,” Williams told therams.com in 2015.
That quote is from the video below. It’s six minutes well spent if you want to learn the basics of the 4-3 defense and gain some insight into how Williams runs it.
3. Players need a notebook
Matt Bowen was a safety for Williams in Washington. In 2013, as an NFL writer for Bleacher Report, Bowen provided an insider’s guide to Williams’ defense.
According to Bowen, Browns defensive players had better be ready to take notes, because Williams’ defense is complex.
“His meetings reminded me of college-level courses that combined chalkboard sessions with film work. I still have the notebooks from my time in Washington, and they are filled with concepts, blitzes, coverages and so on,” Bowen wrote. “The meetings were no joke, and we were tested every day when the film started rolling. Williams had no problem putting you on the spot to answer questions, identify concepts or offensive schemes.”
4. Always in attack mode
The signature of a Williams defense is that it’s always attacking. Expect the Browns to blitz a lot. After the Rams hired Williams in 2014, NFLcom writer Bucky Brooks wrote that former players raved about his aggressive nature.
“On passing downs, Williams certainly isn’t afraid to mix in a variety of blitzes from exotic looks – including some Okie fronts (3-4 or nickel 3-3 packages) – as well as the standard 4-2-5 nickel front,” Brooks wrote. “He will order up Cover 0 all-out blitzes in any area of the field, which makes him the ultimate gambler as a play-caller.”
However, as Bowen pointed out on Bleacher Report, this can be Williams’ downfall. “Blitz too much and you can hang your defensive backs out to dry with no help anywhere on the field,” Bowen wrote.
Player development a key for Browns
Player development a key for Browns
The Browns must ensure their young players take big steps forward in coming seasons or the coordinator won’t much matter.5. Scheme to his players’ strengths
Browns head coach Hue Jackson mentioned on Sunday that Williams always gets the most out of his players. In some ways, he is similar to Jackson when it comes to versatility and creativity. When the Rams hired Williams, ESPN’s Jeff Triplett wrote about his creative use of safety Roman Harper.
“One example that stands out most was the way he made safety Roman Harper into a two-time Pro Bowler by using him as a frequent blitzer and pseudo-linebacker,” Triplett wrote. “Williams would also mix and match between a 4-3 and 3-4. His most famous example (of creativity) was the Super Bowl win over Indianapolis and Peyton Manning when he had different plans for the first half, the third quarter and the fourth quarter.”
Browns defenders will probably enjoy running Williams’ defense, complex scheme or not. Bowen did.
“It can be exotic with the disguise, or he will have his guys line up in a blitz look and dare the offense to stop it,” Bowen wrote. “If he could, Williams would blitz fans out of the stands. A great scheme. And one that is fun as hell to play.”
818 mph. 13,723 feet. 3 second burn.
https://youtu.be/hy-3bb1Nqy0So what you’re saying then Soup is that instead of installing a base defense and calling the formations in the beginning, Williams is going to unload the full defense and expect everyone to understand it completely right off the bat.
That’s what you’re saying?Again you miss the point. Ice implied our D sucked because Horton ran too complex a scheme. That implies Williams D is less complex.
Overall this transition won’t be near as easy as people seem to think
Freedom!!!
So what you’re saying then Soup is that instead of installing a base defense and calling the formations in the beginning, Williams is going to unload the full defense and expect everyone to understand it completely right off the bat.
That’s what you’re saying?
That’s what Williams himself, and players who have played for him, have said. See point #3.
Now, for the record, I don’t think this is a bad thing. Williams has high expectations, and players will either rise to meet them or be released. Mr. “Kill the head and the body will die” doesn’t play around with half assed effort or cute behavior. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again; Williams is a killer. I found this on Wikipedia and vaguely remember it when it occurred:
Williams was hired by the New Orleans Saints on January 15, 2009. Head coach Sean Payton, who was heavily involved in the effort to recruit Williams to the team, raved about Williams “because he was so impressive and prepared” in his interview. In fact, Williams was so impressive that Payton offered and took a voluntary $250,000 cut in salary to help facilitate his signing with the team.
This guy is going to be instrumental in changing the culture. Remember Jamie Collins saying “it’s a family around here”? The family atmosphere on defense is gone.
I, for one, am looking forward to seeing our defense next year. Improved personnel. Improved Scheme. Improved “killer” culture.
818 mph. 13,723 feet. 3 second burn.
https://youtu.be/hy-3bb1Nqy0My favorite Gregg Williams quote thus far:
“They’re going to be shocked with our contact. They’re going to be shocked with our speed. They’re going to be shocked with our strength. Respect comes from fear. This is how you get respect in this league…It’s a great game. It’s a production business.”
When I say this man is a killer, this is what I mean (and I mean it as a compliment). He gets it. I’ve listened to the audio that got him banned, and I honestly have no issues with it. “Kill the head and the body will die”. Offensive in the age of player safety? Perhaps. Factual? Absolutely. I don’t believe he meant “go give them concussions”. I think he meant “live in their heads”. Make them think about you and not what they’re supposed to be doing.
Ray Horton is a decent coach, a good man and a nice guy. I don’t think Gregg Williams is a nice guy. I think he’s competent. I think he’s hungry. I think he’s a realist. Look at his defensive line coach in St. Louis, Mike Waufel:
Tell me this isn’t exactly the kind of thinking we need in Cleveland.
818 mph. 13,723 feet. 3 second burn.
https://youtu.be/hy-3bb1Nqy0DS thanks for all the back up and getting what I’m stating. I read the article you posted here yesterday. I also read the full Bowen article from 2013.
Freedom!!!
Ice implied our D sucked because Horton ran too complex a scheme.
Um, no I didn’t. I’ve always said our defense (and our offense) sucked this year because our players sucked. While I don’t think Horton’s scheme was a good fit, I never said that was the reason we sucked.
That implies Williams D is less complex.
You’re now two implications deep, building implications on top of implications, none of which I implied at all. You can go ahead and remove the tinfoil hat when reading my posts. I usually just say exactly what I mean. Field goal hash marks slot receiver lateral.
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