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I thought it was an interesting article.
I read it. Didn’t get too deep into it–not a numbers guy–but did clear up some of the concepts for me.
Thanks for posting it, BFFL.I am glad you got something out of it GA.
I thought it was an interesting article. Just another tool to us to help make the best decision.
Head scout is Microsoft Excel:
#Browns Andrew Berry: “We will be a scouting-centered front office” but incorporate analytics“
Freedom!!!
Soup, you still don’t know what analytics is or how it is used. It isn’t a be all end all. Several division winners utilize analytics. Baltimore uses it, Philly uses it, New England has used it for years. None of us know how much it will be used but it is another tool. It doesn’t mean its the only way which I think you believe it is a be all end all.
Soup, you still don’t know what analytics is or how it is used. It isn’t a be all end all. Several division winners utilize analytics. Baltimore uses it, Philly uses it, New England has used it for years. None of us know how much it will be used but it is another tool. It doesn’t mean its the only way which I think you believe it is a be all end all.
Paul Depodesta runs the organization. All he utilized is analytics. It’s all they will rely on. This is a fact. That’s why they constantly mention the word every chance they get. If a programmer was smart he’d develop a program and design an auto draft for Haslam. Analytics is pure number crunching that doesn’t take in to account actual football acumen and ability. Emmitt Smith and Jerry Rice were considered to slow. Analytics probably doesn’t draft either one
Freedom!!!
Soup, Jerry Rice and Emmett Smith were drafted 16th and 17th because of CONVENTIONAL SCOUTING. You’re literally using examples of scouting’s failures as arguments against analytics. Analytics would most likely see that there is little correlation between a players 40 time and eventual success.
The Browns are not bringing analytics up all the time, they’re being asked about it constantly, mostly because of irresponsible reporting that multiple members of the Browns have refuted.
It is not fact that they sill rely on analytics. It IS fact that they have stated that they will be based in scouting, and will use analytics as a tool, and Depodesta will not be involved in player selections at all.
Furthermore, analytics is NOT pure number crunching. It involves a great deal of studying film both to determine the accuracy of current metrics, and to develop new ones. Every time you write on the subject, you only prove how little you know about it.
Literally every single sentence in your post is wrong. EVERY SINGLE ONE. Look:
1.) Depodesta runs the organization: wrong. Haslams run it. Berry and Stefanski run it. Depodesta ran the coaching search.
2.) all he utlized is analytics. Wrong.
3.) they will rely on it. Wrong. Stated themselves, hired a scout to be GM.
4.) this is fact. Wrong (given it’s wrong anytime soup posts it)
5.) that’s why they mention it every chance they get. Wrong, they don’t.
6.) if a programmer was smart…wrong. This isn’t fantasy football. You can’t auto draft. Just a dumb idea.
7.) analytics is pure number crunching…wrong.
8.) Jerry rice and emit Smith were considered too slow…wrong. Still first round picks. Obviously not considered THAT slow.
9.) analytics downs draft either one. Wrong.
SF also used it. Also if you’ve been paying attention, Andrew Berry said the scouting staff is going to have a major say in who gets drafted.
“ The San Francisco 49ers and SAP have teamed up once again to transform the way that professional sports organizations use data and analytics to enhance the in-venue sports and entertainment“
There’s what analytics is good for. You don’t hire a coach based on his willingness to accept analytics (which we did). You don’t hire book smart Harvard Guys and not expect them to rely on books.
Freedom!!!
New England’s use of analytics via Bill Belichick in Sept 2019
“ Belichick, during his weekly Friday press conference, was asked how big of a role analytics plays into the Patriots’ day-to-day operations.
“Less than zero,” Belichick said, via ProFootballTalk.com. “Analytics is not really my thing.””But hey, keep on fighting the good fight.
Freedom!!!
“During NFL games, analysts such as the Ravens’ Daniel Stern, a 25-year-old Yale cognitive-science student, now sit in the coaching booth and dictate win probabilities to on-field coaches based on internal team analysis of what types of plays can deliver the highest chances of ultimately scoring touchdowns and winning games.”
The Rams have drafted very well, despite missing out of round one for the past three seasons. And the team has been rather successful finding talent among undrafted free agents as well. Much of that has been thanks to the marriage of Rams scouting department under Snead with the emergence of data analytics.
And by the way, Soup, you proved my point about CONFIRMATION BIAS once again. Way to go, you looked for articles decrying analytics and you found them. Woohoo. I obviously looked for articles praising analytics and found them. Means just as little.
And by the way, Soup, you proved my point about CONFIRMATION BIAS once again. Way to go, you looked for articles decrying analytics and you found them. Woohoo. I obviously looked for articles praising analytics and found them. Means just as little.
Actually I typed in “Belichick analytics” to see how he uses it.
I also typed in San Francisco 49ers analytics and that’s what popped up.
I was not utilizing confirmation bias. He mentioned the 49ers and I thought someone mentioned New England but if they didn’t, well, 6 Super Bowls speaks for itself.
Depodesta is running the show regardless of what they state to the public. When he stayed after helping 1-31 and won the power struggle with Dorsey and ran a “coaching search” that shockingly ended with the guy he wanted last year who loves analytics.
Vic Fangio says it best. Analytics in baseball is great and important because you are only defending 1 guy. In football there’s too many variables.
Make no mistake, they hired guys who will live and breathe and follow the numbers.
Haslam love’s analytics. He used them to scam customers at Flying J knowing how little chance he had of being connected to it and being punished for it. It kept him out of jail. Say hello to the bottom of the division.
GM – youngest in NFL History
HC – never been a HC at any level. 1 year 3 games calling plays
OC – 1 year running one of the worst offenses in the NFL
DC – 2 years at the job
And a baseball analytics guy.
Tell me, which part of this looks like a chance of success?
Freedom!!!
I’ve never stayed anywhere that the Browns will have success. If they do succeed, Haslam will likely undermine the whole thing, because that’s what he does.
I’ve simply stated analytics are not to blame, and I’ve stated it because every time analytics is brought up, and every time it’s not, you’ve jumped in like a caveman beating a computer with a club yelling “CROG NO LIKE NUMBERS!”
∆this. If anyone has read Moneyball, MIT math nerds became obsessed with baseball in the 80s, because being essentially an individual sport you can quantitatively analyze player’s job performances. It’s actually fascinating and way more interesting than the movie.
What do you guys think every contract negotiation (outside of rookie deals, which are basically fixed) is based on?
Do you think it’s based on a scouts gut feeling for how good a player is?
You HAVE TO USE QUANTITATIVE ANALYSIS to determine what a players value is. You have to. You use numbers and statistics and say “this is what a players worth.” You can factor in their fit and opinion of them to a small degree, but their market will be set by their numbers.
Anything else is just trying to pull a rabbit out of your ass. “I looked at the film and he’s worth 11.3 mil a year.” Yeah, no, that doesn’t work. You look at his production, which means you look at his statistics, which are numbers, and you pair that how well he’ll fit in your scheme. Analytics is just a method of evaluating the statistics you’re looking at.
The SF 49ers who were just in the Super Bowl uses analytics. Some people have such a biased misconception on what analytics is an how it is utilized that they refuse to see others teams success using it.
Like Dawg said, Haslem will probably screw it up though.
It IS fact that they have stated that they will be based in scouting, and will use analytics as a tool
I dispute that, because guys like Dorsey, Wolf, and Hightower, traditional “scouting” department guys, would still be here. They all left because the direction and philosophy of the Cleveland Depodestas (new team name btw) is that the scouting department will be almost entirely analytics based.
That’s not speculation or conjecture, it’s just the simple truth. Will there be some “traditional” scouting elements to the department? Sure, probably. I don’t see how you scout without using your eyes, but the reality is it will be a very, very small part of the process.
Everything will be data driven. That’s just all there is to it.
Now, some guys are all for that. Some guys absolutely love it and consider it to be nothing short of revolutionary and feel that this is the future of the league and the unquestioned way that things will so go for everyone.
Others think it’s all a bunch of shit.
I’m in the latter group.
I’m all for using all avenues to help make solid informed decisions, but i think that some teams, not just us, are taking it way too far, and to their detriment.
It IS fact that they have stated that they will be based in scouting, and will use analytics as a tool
I dispute that, because guys like Dorsey, Wolf, and Hightower, traditional “scouting” department guys, would still be here. They all left because the direction and philosophy of the Cleveland Depodestas (new team name btw) is that the scouting department will be almost entirely analytics based.
Dorsey left as a ‘mutual parting of ways’. IIRC Wolf and Hightower were fired. I should also point out that Berry came up in the NFL in scouting.
That mutual parting of ways thing is just a nice way to say “Dorsey was told all scouting will be analytics based and if he didn’t like it, there’s the door”.
Wolf and Hightower were dismissed because they disagreed with the approach as well.
I should also point out that Berry came up in the NFL in scouting.
Berry is 32 and barely knows shit. And it was explained to him before his hire that this will be the way of things. He could accept the prominent role that analytics will be taking in the scouting department or he could go work somewhere else. He agreed. If you think he’s here to “change” anything you’re high. He’s a figurehead, and a nearly powerless one at that. His coach doesn’t answer to him and his boss is Depodesta. He has very little value to this team.
Everything @shooter has stated is spot on. Who is responsible for the KC drafts that just won a Super Bowl? Dorsey. He screwed up the coaching search. Of course, Depodesta just screwed it up too. But analytics does that in football
Freedom!!!
I’d like to point out too that is definitely one of those situations where I hate being right. I hate everything I just pointed out and I hate the fact that it’s true. I wish more than anything that it wasn’t the case but sadly it is. Depodesta has been angling for this for years now.
Again though it all comes down to the fact that Jimmy Haslam is the most inept, uninformed, overly emotional, erratic, inconsistent, habitually impulsive, easily swayed fool of an owner in all of professional sports.
In the entire world.
There are relegated soccer teams across the pond with far better ownership and management than the Cleveland Browns are horrendously saddled with.
I hate it and it kills me, but it doesn’t make it any less true.
You guys kill me. Do you really think Dorsey was fired because of some long-con power play by Depodesta to take complete control and lord analytics over everything? Really? That’s your theory? I can disprove the whole thing with one simple question: why was he fired, or “mutually parted ways” from Kansas City?
Think about it. This guy drafts Tyreek Hill, Travis Kelce, Dee Ford, Kareem Hunt, and PATRICK MAHOMES, and gets canned. Why?
He came to Cleveland and drafted Baker, Ward, Chubb, Greedy, Mack Wilson, and trades of OBJ and Landry and gets canned. Why?
Do you really think he got fired, despite a massive amount of success at his main job, from 2 organizations for 2 different reasons? Because KC didn’t have Podesta making an imaginary power play in the name of analytics.
All other things being equal, the simplest answer tends to be the truth, and the simplest answer is Dorsey is an asshat to work with. Same thing that got Todd Haley fired from multiple places. It’s the only reason a guy with his track record gets fired twice.
What else, besides Dorseys firing, is there that is signaling this “huge move towards analytics”? Let’s see, there’s the report bashing the Browns from Josh McDaniels, that came out after the Browns REJECTED HIM in their head coach search. Sorry, don’t take his opinions too seriously.
Oh yeah, there’s also the report from senior citizen Ron Wolf after his son was FIRED FROM THE BROWNS. Yep, not gonna put a whole lot of stock behind that. What else you got?
Here’s what’s really going down: Dorsey was parted ways because he’s tough to work with, and his boys Wolf and Hightower, who he brought in when he was hired, were also let go. Common practice in the good ol’ boys NFL.
The Haslams and Depodesta then decided (after seeing Dorsey shut out the analytics dept. in the hiring of Kitchens) that the new GM and HC had to be OPEN to the IDEA of using analytics. That’s it. They wanted to make sure whoever they hired would be willing to listen instead of sticking their fingers in their ears and going na na na na na I don’t hear you.
Reporters, fans, freshly offended ex-employees and rejected suitors hear “analytics” and lit the torches and grabbed their pitchforks. “THOSE WICTCHES ARE USING SPREADSHEETS! THE HORROR!”
Give me a break.
That mutual parting of ways thing is just a nice way to say “Dorsey was told all scouting will be analytics based and if he didn’t like it, there’s the door”.
Wolf and Hightower were dismissed because they disagreed with the approach as well.
Source?
Berry is 32 and barely knows shit. And it was explained to him before his hire that this will be the way of things. He could accept the prominent role that analytics will be taking in the scouting department or he could go work somewhere else. He agreed. If you think he’s here to “change” anything you’re high. He’s a figurehead, and a nearly powerless one at that. His coach doesn’t answer to him and his boss is Depodesta. He has very little value to this team.
Source?
You’re going all Soup on us here making accusations and trying to pass them as fact.
Depodesta
Brown
Berry1-31 record.
Any questions?
You realize Dawg E Dawg is staying that analytics said not to use Kitchens and to go with Stefanski.
Source?
Analytics will be solely used in all choices moving forward. Nerds trust books and more often than not lack street smarts and instinct.
A bunch of book smart Ivy League guys are running the show. Our most experienced person is Joe Woods with 2 years as a DC. Our OC has one year as an OC. Our HC has never been a head coach at any level.
Welcome to the shit show.
Bank on it:
New regime only 2021 and new tear down
Freedom!!!
First article I found, but it’s mentioned a million other articles that Depodesta wanted McDermott over Hue Jackson, and Stefanski over Kitchens. Out of everything I posted, you picked out the easiest thing to verify.
And again, nobody is saying analytics WONT be used. They just won’t be the ONLY thing used.
And you know what? Your arguing against the one guy that told Haslam NOT to hire Hue Jackson and Freddie Kitchens. That’s real life. We’ve gone through 2 of the worst HCs in nfl history, and now that the ONE guy that said not sign either of them is getting his opinion heard, NOW you think we’re fucked??
And the source for Depodesta wanting McDermott is…..
At this point it’s Depodesta staring it so he looks better so he can keep living in CA doing nothing and making tons of money.
My ears will perk up the moment Stefanski says “I’m not going to call the plays” which won’t happen because he’s hell bent on calling them
Freedom!!!
And the source for Depodesta wanting McDermott is…..
At this point it’s Depodesta staring it so he looks better so he can keep living in CA doing nothing and making tons of money.Let’s expound on that. You’re theory is:
-Depodesta did not recommend to the Haslams that they hire Sean McDermott over Hue Jackson.
-Depodesta leaked a rumor to the media that he DID recommend the Haslams hire McDermott over Jackson
-the media reporting that Depodesta recommended, to the Haslams, to hire McDermott over Jackson is a ploy to fool the Haslams into letting Depodesta keep his job.
Do I have to point out the ridiculousness? A fake media report is supposed to fool the very people who know the exact truth of the situation??
Soup doesn’t like analytics because it says he is wrong 90 percent of the time and believes most of what he reads on the internet without doing any kind of research.
LMAO.….
All kidding aside
….
Most teams that don’t cheat use analytics.
It is a simple as knowing the odds of making a 4th and 2 from the 36 yard line down by 2 with 8 minutes to go in the game.
Wouldn’t you like to know that you have a 65 percent chance of having success as opposed to a 14 percent chance of success depending on the playcall. Now we all know that Freddie Kitchens would have thrown a 36 yards pass on 4th and 2 where analytics tells you that the odds would be in your favor if you throw a 4 yard pass or run the ball.
It doesn’t determine if you go for it or not but it is ANOTHER TOOL to help with decisions which has been repeatedly stated by Stefanski.
Very well stated, BF4L. It’s used to augment you’re knowledge, but not as a substitute for knowledge itself.
Correct, like when 2/3 of the people that are in our front office picked Corey Coleman (too small and never ran routes) because analytics showed he was in the 97th percentile in regards to his SPARQ score.
Set up SPARQ scores and they’ll match their draft board
Freedom!!!
So. Fun fact, there are A LOT more than 3 people in the Browns front office. So Soup, you’re wrong. AGAIN.
And again, I have no interest in what a lawyer that never should have been an NFL GM did in the draft.
The Browns seem to be hiring guys who have values. They are setting the tone for the future. No more risky picks with players who tend to get in trouble.
Its why they talked to both Hunt and Beckham about personal responsibility and acting the right way.
I don’t know if this will work out or not but I do like the direction they are taking.
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