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https://www.foxnews.com/sports/cleveland-browns-all-time-mount-rushmore
I was ready to throw down upon seeing this article but the 4 they picked; Brown, Graham, Newsome, and Groza, are the 4 I would have said. All 4 of them completely revolutionized the position they played.
Anyone disagree with that list?
I think I would switch Groza out with Joe Thomas. It’s tough, and honestly I have Thomas, Newsome, and Groza in a 3 way tie. But, I give it to Thomas for 2 reasons:
1.) it balances out the Mount Rushmore and gives us SOMEBODY from the last 30 years
2.) Groza was a stud on a team full of studs. JT was a stud on a team of garbage. He was the lone bright spot for fans for so many years. He meant everything to some of those teams.
Groza is certainly deserving, don’t get me wrong. I just give JT a slight edge. Can’t think of another player that’s really in the conversation.
Good take. I agree that JT would be the 5th option. My reservation with him is twofold; 1) He wasn’t always considered the best player at his position while he was playing and 2) he did not revolutionize his position.
One hates to compare eras, but to me Dawson>Groza. The FG% isn’t even close. Lou obviously had an edge by playing two positions, but his scoring lead is padded with an insane number of extra points, which Phil lacked due to playing for complete garbage offenses.
Good take. I agree that JT would be the 5th option. My reservation with him is twofold; 1) He wasn’t always considered the best player at his position while he was playing and 2) he did not revolutionize his position.
Tough to dispute the 2nd point, especially with Groza getting the MVP in ‘54. For the first point, I’d argue that Joe is a 7x First team all-pro, which is more than either Newsome or Groza. But the MVP? That might change my mind to Groza.
One hates to compare eras, but to me Dawson>Groza. The FG% isn’t even close. Lou obviously had an edge by playing two positions, but his scoring lead is padded with an insane number of extra points, which Phil lacked due to playing for complete garbage offenses.
I always argue it’s how you compare to your competition, and that’s where Groza was much better than the other kicker did his day, vs. Dawson. Also, I’d be interested to see how modern kickers do with 1950’s footballs, on 1950s football fields. Could not have been ideal for kicking.
One hates to compare eras, but to me Dawson>Groza. The FG% isn’t even close. Lou obviously had an edge by playing two positions, but his scoring lead is padded with an insane number of extra points, which Phil lacked due to playing for complete garbage offenses.
I always argue it’s how you compare to your competition, and that’s where Groza was much better than the other kicker did his day, vs. Dawson. Also, I’d be interested to see how modern kickers do with 1950’s footballs, on 1950s football fields. Could not have been ideal for kicking.
All factors, of course, and all things we’ll never know. Much more than fields, the main differences are kicking style and specialization. My understanding was that, in Lou’s time, the ball was kicked straight forward as opposed to with the side of the foot (as is done in the modern era). Also, there were no substitutions, so your kicker had to be a player already on the field.
Do I think there’s a better chance of Lou learning a new kicking style in the 2000s than Dawson learning to play another position in the 50s? Absolutely. But those hypotheticals are just that, hypothetical.
Would Kobe have put up better numbers than Wilt Chamberlain has he played in the 60s? Would Babe Ruth be able to even hit for average in the modern era? It’s fun to speculate.
Here’s somewhat of a follow up, as Joe Thomas picks his five greatest teammates. List includes two linemen I wish we still had!
There are compelling arguments for all the names mentioned. However, if it were up to me, this would be my list . . .
1 – Jim Brown: Enough said there.
2 – Otto Graham: The only Browns QB to win multiple league championships. As beloved as Brian Sipe and Bernie Kosar are in Cleveland, neither of them can make that claim. He was also the inspiration for Paul Brown inventing the face mask.
3 – Joe Thomas: When the only time you don’t go to the Pro Bowl is when you suffer a career ending injury after you’ve already been there ten times previously, that’s saying something. He was also an All Pro selection six times. That level of achievement is unprecedented. He’s the only one on my list not currently in the HOF, but will be a first time ballot selection. He is the only post-expansion Brown to make this list. Does Myles Garrett have to potential to make the top four? Yes, but only if he stays healthy, maintains a dominating level of performance over a long period of time, keeps from getting suspended and plays his entire career in Cleveland. I say it’s possible, but not probable.
4 – Lou Groza: 21 total seasons with the Browns as an O-lineman and/or placekicker, and that’s with him missing the entire 1960 NFL season with a back injury. He then rejoined the team in 1961 at the age of 37 for seven more years as a placekicker only. Say what you will, but playing 21 seasons at the AAFC and NFL levels is not an easy accomplishment. Name another player in history that’s done it.
Almost there . . . Ozzie Newsome, Marion Motley, Bill Willis, Gene Hickerson, William Clay Matthews Jr., Leroy Kelly.
WHY NOT OZZIE?
While Newsome has an incredible streak of 150 games with at least one reception; many of those games towards the end of his career had him catching a TE screen. He is without a doubt the greatest TE to play as a Cleveland Brown, though; and he was the first African American to be an NFL General Manager with the Baltimore Ravens – who at one time were the Cleveland Browns. These are all to his credit as a player and NFL executive. He’s at the top of the almost there list.As a side note, the city of Baltimore is the only city to have two major sports franchises formerly nicknamed the Browns. The other franchise is the Baltimore Orioles, who were previously the St. Louis Browns.
Good night.
Am I going mad, or did the word THINK escape your lips? You were not hired for your brains, you hippopotamic landmass!
Maybe Wunkle has been reading my mind then making minor changes LOL.
I agree Jim Brown, Otto Graham, and Lou Groza. The 4th player is really difficult though. There are so many that could be mentioned to include Thom Darden, Doug Dieken, and Dick Schafrath.
It is so easy to go offense but some say Bill Willis is the best defensive Browns player every so I would lean in that direction
#1 Otto Graham. Went to 27 straight Championships in 14 years. Name was fucking “Otto”. No one else can lay claim to that level of awesomeness. Greatest player in Browns history. (I said it).
#2 Jim Brown. Football career that nearly rivaled his domestic violence one. Would have won one more ring if he’d have thrown Vince Lombardi off a balcony like he did his girlfriend, that drops him to #2
#3 Joe Thomas. Is actually still playing. Consecutive snap count currently at 16,873. Closest thing on Earth to an actual Marvel superhero.
#4 Ben Gay. Rushed for over 100 yards and scored a touchdown while sharing a namesake with ointment that doubled as a homophobic giggle inducer. Holds Guinness World Record for largest amount of unverified, phantom hype ever produced for an imaginary athlete, edging out Paul Blake when Wally Riggendorf found him on his farm.
@shooter Ben Gay once fumbled a handoff, recovered the fumble, ran for like 20 yards, and fumbled again! It was the mid-2000s Browns summed up in one play.
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