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First, you cannot go back to Hoyer. We were not eliminated from the game and there is zero reason to put a backup QB in other than Hoyer just sucks.
Second, Hoyer sucks. Our wins are not because of his outstanding play.
Finally, time to see what we have. I know many people on here don’t like Manziel. But we will never be able to trade a first rounder for him. So let’s see if he can win. Otherwise, back to the drawing board.
Hue Jackson is a loser.
Personally I’d base it on practice this week. I’d split the reps evenly and let the play on the field work itself out. You can’t deny that Hoyer is a winner. You also can’t deny that Manziel jump-started the offense.
I’m a Hoyer fan but these last two games have been almost impossible to watch. When opposing defenses are able to contain our running game, the passing game falls completely apart. 5 INT’s vs 0 TD’s is too awful to be explained away on other players. When you have a 1st round QB sitting the bench behind you there is no room for excuses.
Manziel leaves more questions than answers for me though. Will he practice differently this week than he has in the past? He shouldn’t… he should be giving his all every week in practice. If there’s a big change in his effort this week then that’s more of a negative than a positive IMO. Is Manziel still running an offense with training wheels? Yeah he can go in and spark the team in garbage time, but if he can’t read the whole field then he won’t be winning us many games. Is Manziel more like Russell Wilson – who wins games with his arm, his legs, but mostly his brain; or is he more like Colin Kaepernick who looks good for a little while because he can make plays, but falls flat when he’s asked to win important games because he can’t run a complicated offense?
@ice splitting the reps is a terrible idea. You need consistency at the position. The biggest issue right now with this team is not the QB. It’s the idiot calling the plays.
50
40
38Those are the pass attempts the past 3 games. That’s absolutely positively unacceptable. Hoyer is not Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. Neither is Manziel. Our refusal to run the ball is sickening and it’s why we are losing. 3rd and goal from the 3 – it was a guaranteed pass. Always is if it’s 3rd and more than 1. That decision cost us the game. Had we been smart we run on 3rd – we don’t make it? Run on 4th. We don’t impose our will.
BAck to the QB question. Hoyer has looked panicked for 3 games. Since Manzil went in – it’s time to make the switch. We are in 4th place. I don’t care that we are 7-5. Our entire division is above .500. We beat:
5-7 – Saints
2-10 – Titans
2-10 – Buccaneers
1-11 – Raiders
5-7 – Falcons
8-3-1 – Bengals
7-5 – SteelersWe lost to:
7-5 Steelers
7-5 – Bills
7-5 – Ravens
2-10 – Jaguars
6-6 – TexansThat’s terrible. As I said in chat. We know Hoyer isn’t the long term answer. 3 games in a row we learned that. IT’s time to bite the bullet and play Manziel. Let him make mistakes the final 4 games and learn so in 2015 we don’t start out 0-4 with him learning then. Don’t throw away 2 seasons out of stubbornness. We did what we needed with Hoyer. We found out he’s not with the huge deal. He’s worth a high paid back-up.
Freedom!!!
Is Manziel still running an offense with training wheels? Yeah he can go in and spark the team in garbage time, but if he can’t read the whole field then he won’t be winning us many games. Is Manziel more like Russell Wilson – who wins games with his arm, his legs, but mostly his brain; or is he more like Colin Kaepernick who looks good for a little while because he can make plays, but falls flat when he’s asked to win important games because he can’t run a complicated offense?
At this point, I would hope Shanahan would keep some serious training wheels on. Utilize the shotgun as your base set. Simplify the reads, give him a deep target and an outlet guy, use crossing routes to clear out linebackers and safeties to open running lanes for Johnny. Throw him conventional plays on second-and-managable situations to see how he does. Keep challenging him to learn and develop, but don’t overwhelm him. Keep the window open for him to improvise, because for better or worse his ability to run around and extend plays is why you drafted him. Most of all, stick with the run game no matter what.
To me, the most important thing will be keeping Shanahan next year. Continuity on the offense and a steady, well planned out developmental track are the biggest components in a quarterback’s development.
To me, the most important thing will be keeping Shanahan next year. Continuity on the offense and a steady, well planned out developmental track are the biggest components in a quarterback’s development.
@soup disagrees!
But the OC is a topic for another thread. Is no one in favor of keeping Hoyer as the starter?
But the OC is a topic for another thread. Is no one in favor of keeping Hoyer as the starter?
It hurts to say, because I really like the kid, he grew up in the same suburb as me, and he’s led us to a great season so far…but no, not after the last three games.
His accuracy issues have gotten worse instead of improving, and his decision making process has eliminated his best attribute (not turning the ball over). His confidence also appears to have taken a major hit, which is a bad sign.
He’s had issues with a lack of quality targets, a lack of chemistry with his #1 WR, dismal performances by the o-line, and uneven performances from the running game…which means it’s not necessarily “fair”. But it’s a bottom line league. I think we’ve seen his ceiling, and he’s a guy who can sneak out some wins…but the team can’t afford to watch him make bad throws and decisions for three quartrrs and hope he puts together a last-minute miracle.
By no means am I a Johnny fan. Didn’t like the pick, I think he’s closer to Tebow than Russell Wilson. He did impress me in the pre-season with better arm talent than I thought he would have. It’s time to see if his game can work in the NFL.
His worst performances came in the last 2 games; that just happens to coincide with the return of Gordon. We have seen Gordon and Hoyer having plenty of miscommunication, but IMO it looks like Hoyer has really been forcing the ball to Gordon. I know Gordon is some amazing talent but the fact is he hasn’t practiced with Hoyer much at all and they have no chemistry. I feel like if Cameron was in the lineup we’d see a completely different Hoyer: one with options.
Personally I’d base it on practice this week. I’d split the reps evenly and let the play on the field work itself out.
this is fine in preseason or at the beginning of a season when you have a team going nowhere…
but to not fully practice with Manziel would be a poor decision. the Hoyer experiment is over. no hard feelings….guys got heart, but heart is fixing the lack of touchdowns and the only good game we really have had in the last 7 game stretch is against cinci
You can’t deny that Hoyer is a winner.
Can’t deny he is a hard worker with heart. i can deny he will not get us in the playoffs
You also can’t deny that Manziel jump-started the offense.
Time for a change. gotta win. we have been bad for a real long time and went through more qbs then i have with fat girls at the local pub.
Manziel leaves more questions than answers for me though. Will he practice differently this week than he has in the past? He shouldn’t… he should be giving his all every week in practice.
has he been getting reps with the first team all year? i dont show up for practice, but i highly doubt it
Hue Jackson is a loser.
@ice splitting the reps is a terrible idea. You need consistency at the position. The biggest issue right now with this team is not the QB. It’s the idiot calling the plays.
50 40 38
Those are the pass attempts the past 3 games. That’s absolutely positively unacceptable. Hoyer is not Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady or Peyton Manning.I don’t disagree with you on the running as ridiculous as you can be with it….
there are games where every nfl qb will throw the ball 50 times a game….whether it be no run game or playing catch up, it happens.
Hue Jackson is a loser.
Hoyer IS a winner. He’s won twice as many games as he’s lost with the Browns over the past 2 seasons. Without Hoyer (but with the same surrounding cast) other QB’s are 1-12 over the same time frame (or 2-12 if you count the 2013 Bills game). Hoyer is bar none the best QB we’ve had since 1995. Without his all-pro center, without his pro-bowl TE, and without any decent run game Hoyer has struggled mightily in the last few weeks. So we should give up on him? It’s time to move on? Just to see what the next guy has?
So lets say the next guy sucks… great. Now we’ve lost Hoyer, because he’s not going to resign with the Browns while there’s a threat that Manziel will supplant him, and while the fanbase is eager for him to be benched because he wasn’t a flashy college player who is friends with Lebron. So if Manziel sucks we’ll have lost a QB that brought us 7 wins through a hell of a lot of diversity and we’ll be stuck with a QB who was good in college and is BFF’s with Drake.
I feel Hoyer is very similar to Drew Brees with San Diego. Brees was a game manager in SD who threw more INT’s in his first 3 years than TD’s. He struggled to move his offense quite a bit. When they traded for Rivers and changed their entire offense Brees started to take off, and just because Rivers was the new fresh 1st round QB they chose to keep Rivers instead of Brees. You know how that story ends (hint, it ends badly for SD and great for New Orleans). We should learn from it.
Actually – you are wrong in your Brees/Rivers scenario. He’d still be a Charger if he didn’t royally mess up his shoulder in that last game with them. They didn’t know if it would heal right. That’s why teams passed on him in FA.
Freedom!!!
Actually – you are wrong in your Brees/Rivers scenario. He’d still be a Charger if he didn’t royally mess up his shoulder in that last game with them. They didn’t know if it would heal right. That’s why teams passed on him in FA.
Of course I remember the injury. It was the offseason where he and Daunte Culpepper were both on the market and I was telling anyone who would listen that we needed to grab Brees. Unfortunately no one in the Browns listened. Can you imagine how things would be different right now had we gotten Brees? But who needs Brees when you have Charlie Frye. There aren’t enough cursewords in the urban dictionary to describe that situation. But as usual I digress, and as usual Soup tries to distract from the topic at hand to focus instead on a comparison that he doesn’t like because it doesn’t fit his narrative. 😉
I feel like earlier in the year teams were blitzing Hoyer a ton (as one would conventionally do against an inexperienced starter, and he was great at identifying the blitzers and making the hot read to an open man. Now, teams are rushing four and mixing up their coverage, forcing him to read their zones and fir the ball into a tighter window…and it’s really exposing his lack of accuracy. Just something I noticed on Sunday; if I get time I’ll do some research to see if there’s something to this.
Yo Icicle…
Hoyer IS a winner. He’s won twice as many games as he’s lost with the Browns over the past 2 seasons. Without Hoyer (but with the same surrounding cast) other QB’s are 1-12 over the same time frame (or 2-12 if you count the 2013 Bills game). Hoyer is bar none the best QB we’ve had since 1995. Without his all-pro center, without his pro-bowl TE, and without any decent run game Hoyer has struggled mightily in the last few weeks. So we should give up on him? It’s time to move on? Just to see what the next guy has?
Tim Tebow
So lets say the next guy sucks… great. Now we’ve lost Hoyer, because he’s not going to resign with the Browns while there’s a threat that Manziel will supplant him, and while the fanbase is eager for him to be benched because he wasn’t a flashy college player who is friends with Lebron. So if Manziel sucks we’ll have lost a QB that brought us 7 wins through a hell of a lot of diversity and we’ll be stuck with a QB who was good in college and is BFF’s with Drake.
I feel Hoyer is very similar to Drew Brees with San Diego. Brees was a game manager in SD who threw more INT’s in his first 3 years than TD’s. He struggled to move his offense quite a bit. When they traded for Rivers and changed their entire offense Brees started to take off, and just because Rivers was the new fresh 1st round QB they chose to keep Rivers instead of Brees. You know how that story ends (hint, it ends badly for SD and great for New Orleans). We should learn from it.not sure what lebron has to do with this. i know many of you will hate on me….but lebron a is a traitor. i will never support or root for the cavs or dan gilbert. this is off topic and has nothing to do with the browns – but lebron can go suck a cock…hopefully one the size of trees steroid induce so he doesnt choke to death.
back to topic correct me if i am wrong ice….but i believe drew brees lead the charges to back to back 14-2 seasons where at points he was was close to be undefeated. To compare hoyer to brees is a terrible comparison and simply makes no sense…..you know what better yet, i will put the time in:
drew brees stats: http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/2580/drew-brees
brian “the duck” hoyer: http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/12477/brian-hoyer
very simple = statistically in brees first year he is worst than brees (no one game doesnt count)
completion percentage – the most important state in the nfl – is way lower than what brees has ever had.
I am sorry ICE – but spring isnt here and you shouldnt be so soft. the dude is terrible. ever aspect of his game is garbage. he does almost zero difference than what derek anderson does.
Hue Jackson is a loser.
I feel like earlier in the year teams were blitzing Hoyer a ton (as one would conventionally do against an inexperienced starter, and he was great at identifying the blitzers and making the hot read to an open man. Now, teams are rushing four and mixing up their coverage, forcing him to read their zones and fir the ball into a tighter window…and it’s really exposing his lack of accuracy. Just something I noticed on Sunday; if I get time I’ll do some research to see if there’s something to this.
its the same every year mdp…cam newton was good…rg3 was good….russel wilson was good
dude its the fucking nfl. one thing matters!! FILM. ask BB and spygate etc.
it matters. know players instincts and reactions to scenarios is all that matters
never told you this mdp, but i was an amazing chess player in my life. its no different in the nfl. numbers never lie. never. flukes happen on percentages, but which side of the spectrum do you want to put it on
Hue Jackson is a loser.
<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>soup wrote:</div>Actually – you are wrong in your Brees/Rivers scenario. He’d still be a Charger if he didn’t royally mess up his shoulder in that last game with them. They didn’t know if it would heal right. That’s why teams passed on him in FA.
Of course I remember the injury. It was the offseason where he and Daunte Culpepper were both on the market and I was telling anyone who would listen that we needed to grab Brees. Unfortunately no one in the Browns listened. Can you imagine how things would be different right now had we gotten Brees? But who needs Brees when you have Charlie Frye. There aren’t enough cursewords in the urban dictionary to describe that situation. But as usual I digress, and as usual Soup tries to distract from the topic at hand to focus instead on a comparison that he doesn’t like because it doesn’t fit his narrative.
I understood your analogy, however, Brees had ratings of 104 and 89 in consecutive years. Including the playoffs in 2004 at 12-4. 2005 they went 9-7. Hoyer hasn’t had near that. That’s the difference
That said – you got your starting wish for Hoyer.
Freedom!!!
How quickly we get spoiled in Cleveland. Hoyer is averaging 250 passing yards per game. Even in Anderson’s ‘monster’ year in 2007 he only averaged 237 yards per game. Hoyer is on pace to throw for 4000 yards this year. That’s a plateau no Browns QB has reached in 35 years, since Brian Sipe. For a guy in his 1st year starting in the NFL that’s pretty good reason to see what he can do. Maybe if our O-line could maybe block for him just a little bit and maybe if we could also run the ball that would help. Oh, and maybe it would also help if we could have the same receivers start for 2 weeks in a row. Hoyer is not the reason this team is losing. The last few weeks didn’t help, but if we don’t have an effective running game we don’t win. It’s as simple as that.
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